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direct control of a ******** cage
imsoco
Posts: 46
I'd like to slap a netlinx processor on an existing ******** system enabling direct control of ithe ******** cards and channels in a slave/master configuration. Has anyone heard of this before? I believe that "sendcresnetpacket" on tcip would work if I could get the hex address for the cards and channels. I have inherited a mess and want simple control without using ******** software.
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So you want simple control, but not SIMPL control? Sorry, couldn't resist.
The documentation for sendcresnetpacket is pretty damned sparse at (http://www.crestr0n.com/downloads/pdf/product_misc/simpl_plus_language_ref.pdf - link needs repair, of course). It seems like your idea could work, but as you say, you'd need a lot more specifics than that document gives.
If it were me, I'd probably bite the bullet and fire up a "simple" program from Firmware-of-the-Week, Inc. Invent a quick-n-dirty protocol that gets the job done, and implement it on both sides. Use TCP or RS232 to connect the two systems, whichever is easier at the job site. But then, that depends on having the source for the other system, which you may well not.
Good luck!
I really would like to keep it simple and not simpl. One result I expect to find is a reduction in time between button press and execution. Even though another processor is added, it has to be better than the 1.5 second wait that is currently there.
EG you can't even trigger a relay or pulse an ir unless you have defined a signal name for that relay or ir channel in simpl.
You then have to have the source code to know what signal name has been assigned before you can control it.
To talk to it you must have put into the code a tcp/ip Server (which only supports one connection) or an ethernet intersystem connect (which you then need to reverse engineer).
You therefore need to create your own protocol and create events in simpl.
Its very complex and you need to speek both languages reasonably well.
Sorry but someone else at my company has done it so I can't supply any source code to help out because I don't own it.
SendCresnetPacket
Sends the string specified by PACKET onto the Cresnet network. It duplicates the function of the SIMPL Windows symbol ?Network Transmission (Speedkey:
NTX).? This function is not used in general programming. Parameters:
PACKET is a string containing the command to put on the Cresnet network.
Example:
SendCresnetPacket(?\xFF\x03\x02?);
This example will send a broadcast message to all touchpanels causing them to enter sleep mode. The preferable way to do this is use the SLEEP input of the BROADCAST symbol in SIMPL Windows.
There is also a passthrough mode which will bypass and ignore any program running which will all direct access to the cresnet, similar to axcess.
I appreciate any and all comments as it is a large job and a great client that I am committed to support. Using original programmer in another state to correct his programming errors is very slow.
If that is just simply NOT an option for whatever reason, the biggest issue with the road you're trying to go down (aside from the facts that there are no guarantees, support, little to no documentation, etc - which should be enough to turn you off to the idea) is that you're not going to be talking to the C-tron processor AT ALL unless you have written a program to run on it and interpret your messages.
Yes - from SIMPL or S+, there are commands that let you inject messages right onto the Cresnet bus - useful only if you know how to format those messages in the first place. The bad news is, unless you're writing a C-tron program, you can't make use of those commands. This leaves you with the daunting task of trying to configure a com port to speak under the correct quasi-RS485 protocol that is Cresnet. Assuming you could accomplish that, and assuming you knew how to format all of the packets, you might have a chance...
Or - you could always sell the client new AMX hardware and put the C-tron stuff up on eBay.
- Chip
We are also faced with some unfortunate clients being SOLD amazing control systems, but the sellers never delivering. Unfortunately for the clients, it seems they most of the time get stuck with C stuff. I am currently looking into learning SIMPL (and it doesn't strike me as too complicated so far, just very cumbersome) with the idea of possibly offering repair services for some of the people that really were for the most part innocent victims. (I have no compassion for the clients that didn't research the company they choose or went against the builders recommendations and let their "Guru" friend do the work). But one thing I will not do is mix the two systems. I will also make sure that the client knows that our expertise lies in AMX and all of our "Cool" clients switch to AMX (Peer pressure
One last story.... since I'm feeling chatty
The customer was a little excited and asked how long until the system would be ready for use. The reply was something like: "Well, if I put 3 programmers on this job full time, the soonest I can see having a functional system would be the middle of July." THAT's OVER 3.5 MONTHS!!!!! and they have already been working on this job for atleast the last YEAR! (the equipment has been in place for atleast the last year)
Well, I hope something I said in the long message helps.
Jeff
His builder duped him on this system. We found 4 touchscreens, a couple of crestrong ss processors and multichannel amps stuck in the storage room. I guess he sold these as reserves in case something else broke.
Luckily, it is a good client who has had great success with us in the past. We give him 24/7 service in his different homes we did for him. With the dealer hanging onto the software we are at his mercy for repairs to the code, which take a week.
The dealer wants $10k for his software, which is buggy and which we will probably have to rewrite. There does not seem any easy way out for the client for us to be able to offer fast service.
My solution is to reuse much of his stuff as possible and get code that I can correct on the spot remotely. Oh yeah, remote code changes. The crestrong dealer said he can up load simple lighting keypad changes remotely, but if fails most of the time and the system will probably need rebooting locally to keep on line.
Now that you have more of the story, any ideas?
A. Bite the bullet and replace the system, selling as much of the old system as possible (ebay or friends/enemies with C systems). This is one of those things that you will have to discuss with the client to determine if the C money pit is going to continue to suck up money.
B. Live with it the way it is. A lot of clients just give up. They can't afford to replace the system, or choose to cut their losses. They will often times try to get the original programmer/installer to make the system as usable as possible and then eventually wind up never using the system because it is soo difficult or buggy. This option is very unfortunate and very bad for our industry.
C. Seek legal solutions. I have very limited experience with this option, but it may be possible depending on the original contracts and the current situation of the original seller. Obviously, if the seller is out of business or in serious trouble, there will be almost no chance of getting any money back, but there could be grounds to nullify the contract and with it any money still owed. I know that a letter from a lawyer can often motivate some shady business people to reach more desirable solutions.
Given the extreme reliance on C throughout the job, I am having a difficult time developing a reliable method to fix the system without major costs. Having never worked with C lighting control, I don't know how difficult switching it out would be.
Off the top of my head, one approach might be to develop a C module to interface with an AMX processor that allows you to control the lighting and HVAC. You might even pay a reputable C programmer to develop these 2 modules. Then you could connect the AMX processor to the C processor using 1 or even 2 serial ports (to avoid any difficulties with programming and IP comms) to give you lighting and HVAC control using the current hardware. This would probably mean limited control over the lighting and simple HVAC control, but it would use current hardware.
I would switch out the audio/video switchers with something easier to control via an AMX processor for simplicity and reliablilty. You could still use the C amps which saves you the trouble of rewiring the speakers and reuses more existing equipment.
I would also switch the touchpanels to AMX touchpanels and try to sell the C panels. I just had another idea. Doesn't C offer some sort of web control? Even if you maintain control of the lighting and HVAC on the C system, you might be able to set up a PC for computer control and use AMX's computer control to give you more indepth lighting control. Depending on the house layout, you might even be able to leave a few of the C panels in place simply for lighting and HVAC control and use the AMX panels for Audio/Video.
Hope you can find something to help.
Jeff
button_event[tp,dvd_fwd_and_seek] { push: { on[vdvd_fwd_seek_but_fbk] } hold[20]: { on[dvd,seek_fwd] on[vdvd_has_seek] } release: { if (vdvd_has_seek) { off[dvd,seek_fwd] off[vdvd_has_seek] } else { pulse[dvd,dvd_track_fwd] } off[vdvd_fwd_seek_but_fbk] } } button_event[tp,dvd_rew_and_seek] { push: { on[vdvd_rew_seek_but_fbk] } hold[20]: { on[dvd,seek_rew] on[vdvd_has_seek] } release: { if (vdvd_has_seek) { off[dvd,seek_rew] off[vdvd_has_seek] } else { pulse[dvd,dvd_track_rew] } off[vdvd_rew_seek_but_fbk] } }equals about 6 hours of "block building" and debugging on the c* (they do have a prebuilt module but it was not compatible for the application I was building it for.
6 hours to replicate that code? I've done 6 hour programming jobs on Cre$tron gear. That ain't one of 'em.
- Chip
BTW, the number of different ways people have been referring to to Crestron in this thread is worth the price of admission.
Thanks to all who offered their two cents. I ended up yanking the whole system. That included 16 thermostats, 18 touch screens, 84 keypads, two crestrong surround sound processors, 78 zones of amplification, audio and video routers. Oh yeah, there were three hundred lighting loads controlled by the 11 crestrong lighting system panels with 66 modules. It took one long week to rip it all out, replace it with AMX and Lutron and get the house operational again. The final tweaks were done the following week. The house was occupied the entire time.
The reason for the tear out wasn't due to inferior product. It came from bad code and really bad install and documentation. (If you didn't like the first number on the wire, keep looking and you would find more) There were no as-built plans for the lighting or low voltage. The twit who installed it considered plans were just a suggestion and he had better sense than to follow them.
The software was created by a company that was just written up in a magazine for their great, easy to use, crestrong interface. It did not mention the problem we had - one and a half seconds from button release to a light responding. This is, of course, after you have sufficiently awoken the panel. The first few presses on any keypad would be ignored until the system had its coffee.
As the customer explained to me, he didn't need a 6 button keypad to turn on one light in the pantry. This was typical throughout the house, (water closets had 12 button keypads for the light and fan). He first had to guess which button worked, (the others weren?t programmed). He then had to press it three times to get the light on bright. If he had mis-counted the presses and hit it four times, it did nothing. This billionaire who owns companies around the planet really didn't want to play a guessing game when he wanted to use the crapper. Who would?
I was very worried about causing this much expense to the client. He had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for the hardware I was about to sell on eBay. I considered maybe I was being too critical on the hardware install. My feelings soon changed when I pressed a touch screen to turn on a light. All the lights turned off and then all the screens in the house had the same red bold letters across their face - "Cresnet Failure". At this time, the customer happened to come down the stairs to our now dark dungeon of automation horror. He asked, "You are going to be able to fix this, right?" I un-expectantly let out a laugh. The system from Hell had its own answer. All of the lights in the house started to flash on and off. The customer left with a nod. It took five minutes to get the beast to quit flashing.
There were so many major design, installation and software errors that would take forever to find them all. The client did not want to wait. I did not want to have him cussing me out every time a new problem showed its ugly head. The excuse "I didn't do it" wouldn't work for long.
He had been there two years with thermostats controlling the wrong zones, one calling for heat while the other calling for cool. The t-stat in the zone being cooled controlled the zone calling for heat. Get the picture? It took out a compressor, a coil unit and even a heavy duty breaker. Doing a new system from the ground up would save him money.
The builder, who thought he could be an integrator, came up with this design, sold the product, installed it by the hour and left with the money. He is long gone and out of legal reach. Surprisingly, he never opened that new AV store just after completion of this house from Hell as planned. I am currently working with the Contractors? Board to stop this influx of rework I find I am doing for others.
The customers have big smiles on their faces now; they can turn on and off the lights, don't have to sleep with all of the doors and windows open when it is 60 degrees outside and can figure out which button to use. Thanks to AMX and Lutron coming up with all the parts needed within a weeks notice, I was able to keep my promise to the client and kill the beast without letting a month pass.
If you know anyone who wants some crestrong stuff, it's going cheap.
The stuff is not on eBay yet. Here is a very rough partial list.
quantity Brand part number description
2 ******** CNX-PVID8X4 VIDEO ROUTER
3 ******** TPS-3000 touch screen
******** TPS-2000 touch screen
2 ******** C2N-DAP8RC SS PRO
******** CT 1000 touch screen
******** C2N TFM RADIO
******** CNMSX-PRO PROCESSOR
******** CNX-BN12 KEYPAD
******** CNX-BN2 KEYPAD
******** CNX-BN8 KEYPAD
2 ******** CNAMPX-12X60 amp
1 ******** CNX-PBVR4 video receiver
8 ******** CHV TSTAT thermostat
******** CNX PAD8A
1 ******** CNAMPX-12X60 audio amplifier
2 ******** CLW-DIMW wall box switch
2 ******** CLW-5ww stand alone wall box switch
1 ******** TPS-IMPC network block
1 ******** CNX RY-16 relay output expansion card
1 ******** CNXTA
14 ******** CNX-BN4 4 button keypad
19 ******** CNX-BN12 12 button keypads
9 ******** CNX-BN6 6 button keypads
1 ******** CLX-4HSW4 4/4 module
7 ******** CLX-1DIM4 1/4 module w/o block
8 ******** CLX-1DIM4 1/4 module w/block
10 ******** CLX-1Dim8 1/8 module w/block
4 ******** CLX-1Dim8 1/8 module w/o block
12 ******** CT 1000 ******** 5" touchscreen
1 ******** TPS-2000 ******** 6' touchscreen
9 ******** C2N-HBLOCK
3 ******** C2N-SPW-S300 System power supply
1 ******** Pro 2 processor
2 ******** C2N-NPA8
4 ******** CNX-BIPAD8 Distribution Processor
1 ******** ST-TUNE
10 ******** CAEN-block
2 ******** CLX-2DIM2 2/2 module w/block
1 ******** CLX-2DIM2 2/2 moule w/o block
1 ******** CNX-APBVR4 video balance receiver
2 ******** CNAMPX-16x60 amp
1 Kenwood MR-H1 entertainment hub (Kenwood)
1 Kenwood Kenwood sovereign
1 MidAtlantic 42" space rack
1 Speakercraft CRS-Two 6in speaker pair
1 Lutron 4 series processor
2 Panamax MAX 4300 Panamax
1 Max4300 surge supressor
email me at donc@imsoco.com
If you have the source code. I have our AMX lighting system controled through our 2 ******** systems, and controling a ******** tuner through a NI-3000. The easiest way is to "create" a easy protocal and sends strings over 232 or IP back and forth.