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Future of Home Automation?

Hi - Given the premium attached to high end home automation I was very excited with the release of the samsung Q1 ultra mobile PC. One of these tablets and a cheap linux server could spell the end to thousands it costs to setup up multi-room automation.

Looking at what is available these days its almost getting to the stage where AMX and its competitors need to be careful they don't price themselves out of the market...

Comments

  • It is not the hardware!
    hodeyp wrote:
    Hi - Given the premium attached to high end home automation I was very excited with the release of the samsung Q1 ultra mobile PC. One of these tablets and a cheap linux server could spell the end to thousands it costs to setup up multi-room automation.

    Looking at what is available these days its almost getting to the stage where AMX and its competitors need to be careful they don't price themselves out of the market...

    No offense to you, but your observation has been expressed so many times in so many ways that it is like a broken record.

    Hardware prices will ultimately drop for the processor and UI resulting in little profit for the reseller. The true value of a system will be in the software application and integration expertise. AMX will continue to have a long and healthy life for the high end custom market as long as they continue to deliver a premium product.
  • hodeyphodeyp Posts: 104
    I would agree with your sentiment and am certainly not trying to bash AMX - I use their kit personally and love it.

    My only concern is that as the automation industry is commoditised to the degree that it is opened up to the masses then companies like AMX need to constantly re-invent themselves to get the product offering right.

    X10 and the like were never going to be a competitor to the high end (read reliable) but the advent of PC's like the Samsung Q1 really do alter the dynamics of part of the AMX product offering - I for one would jump at the chance of using a real PC (or preferably mac!) optimised for handheld use and a control programme that would give you access to industry standard software design tools.

    There is no doubt that the real edge is in good software engineering so I expect the professionals who supply automation solutions will always be a premium offering. But I also believe that I could choose to buy a linux box and tablet pc and write an interface and control code that would replicate pretty much all of what the amx system can do at a fraction of the current cost.

    AMX have some great products, the MAX-HT content servers look awesome - I just hope that the bread & butter products are not being relied upon for profitability and future R&D as I do not see a bright future for it.
  • What about reliability? AMX control products contain no moving parts, no fans to go out. What about support? Who will you send your PC/LInux based tablet to for support? Think of the long-term support issues you would be taking on "using a real PC". How long does your average PC go with out some sort of failure? We have AMX systems that have run uninterrupted for 15+ years, do you think a PC can do that? Even your precious MAC? (UNIX), especially if you allow the user to use any PC aspects of the PC. What about updates to things like browsers, security issues, etc. If you look at the big picture and your time isn't dirt cheap, AMX is totally worth it.
  • What about reliability? AMX control products contain no moving parts, no fans to go out. What about support? Who will you send your PC/LInux based tablet to for support? Think of the long-term support issues you would be taking on "using a real PC". How long does your average PC go with out some sort of failure? We have AMX systems that have run uninterrupted for 15+ years, do you think a PC can do that? Even your precious MAC? (UNIX), especially if you allow the user to use any PC aspects of the PC. What about updates to things like browsers, security issues, etc. If you look at the big picture and your time isn't dirt cheap, AMX is totally worth it.
    AMEN!

    And great passion to boot.
  • TurnipTruckTurnipTruck Posts: 1,485
    hodeyp wrote:
    But I also believe that I could choose to buy a linux box and tablet pc and write an interface and control code that would replicate pretty much all of what the amx system can do at a fraction of the current cost.

    Yes you could (maybe). Even if you could, you would be in a very small minority. AMX systems and their programmers exist because most people cannot do such things on their own. Joe Well to Do has better things to do than design UIs and write code, but still wants slick control in his home, thus he hires someone to do it.

    Even with the seemingly high price of AMX product, it would still cost you less in the long run than if you had to develop your own hardware systems and perfect them to the level that AMX has. And when it doesn't work you don't have anyone to call that can help.

    Unless all of the world's equipment manufacturers get together and develop some universal communication language and connectivity system, AMX isn't going anywhere soon. Heck, I deal with some bozo projector manufacturers that can't even supply the correct serial control protocol for their products.
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    What's gong to happen is that other manufacturer's products will become more like AMX and C, and they, in turn, will provide more lower end stuff to attract a bigger market. But, they will always be developing newer products to push the envelope farther, and there will remain a need for experts to make it all happen.

    The biggest problem, in my opinion, of any PC based system is upport. There is just way too much variety of hardware out there. And, once a customer has a PC of any sort, they start thinking along the lines of, "why is this just controlling my house, I want it to do ... as well?" So it doesn't remain a dedicated system, and you have to start dealing with software conflicts, security upgrades, driver issues, and all that junk that simply doesn't exist in an integrated product designed for a specific purpose.

    Neither do I buy into the concept that Unix, or Mac OS are inherently much more secure than Windows. They are (1) more specialized and have a smaller exposure to errant third-party software, (2) they are not as big a target for hackers and exploiters, and (3) they don't have the stigma of being part of the "evil empire," and accordingly are not scrutinized as closely.
  • ericmedleyericmedley Posts: 4,177
    Another component of this argument is the inertia of the A/V market when it comes to integrating IT based technology. I came from a commercial/industrial based A/V market into a primarily residential A/V market (albeit, a very high-end residential) Commercial/Industrial has had to get on the IT bandwagon. It had to to keep up. However, in residential I find that there is still a general mistrust of all things IT. I've had to bring some of the designers kicking and screaming into the world of IT based design. I'll also admit that the fear is not without merit. Now that they're doing it they 'get it' and are even embracing it.

    While there's plenty to gripe about when it comes to AMX and those whose name we shant mention, there is one big element that keeps them at the top of the game. That being, they understand that they are not above or beyond their market and its forces. They have a very vested interested in maintaining a connection at all levels of their customer base.

    PC / Software manufacturers have the luxury of remaining somewhat aloof to the needs of their clients. PC manufactuers are not necessarily interested in which brand of software you choose to use on their machine. Likewise software designers don't care much which flavor of PC you use.

    However, AMX and the other guy have a vested interest in the whole enchilada. As long as these forces are still at play, the high-end control market is going to be generally safe. Until someone like Microsoft makes an earnest attempt at doing 'whole-(house,business,etc...) control the little trunk-slammer upstarts are probably not going to knock AMX and C off the heap.

    I do watch them and look at the options. the major problem I've seen so far is that the designers of such things still don't seem to have a clue what a truly 'high-end' system looks like or how it works.

    enuff beating on this horse.
    later.
  • hodeyphodeyp Posts: 104
    I suppose the real test would be to see what a certain Mr Gates & Mr Jobs use in their homes - now that would be interesting...
  • yuriyuri Posts: 861
    hodeyp wrote:
    I suppose the real test would be to see what a certain Mr Gates & Mr Jobs use in their homes - now that would be interesting...


    mr gates used amx or so i've heard. They use meetingmanager in their offices :)
  • youstrayoustra Posts: 135
    Here's the analogy I use - there's no reason you can't replace a Tivo with a PC. On paper, it's even better: no recurring monthly fee, easily & cheaply scalable storage, redistributable files, low-cost multiple clients, etc etc etc.

    But it never works out like that. The pc hardware is always betrayed by the unacceptable compromises of it's "general platform" architecture: service packs, antivirus & firewall conflicts, slow boot, unsteady drivers, high latency.

    Take the latest PC and compare it to a 5 year old TPI. See which boots faster, which loads its UI faster, which pulls up a video screen faster.

    Now take that functionality and lay it on top of critical functions like security, lighting. No reason I'd make that tradeoff now.

    This stuff could follow the path of Wang or Apple. It all depends on how nimble AMX et al are at managing the cost structure and keeping the products fresh.

    And there will always be the need for some sort of intermediary to design the system and lay out the UI.
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    This raises in my mind a thought that applies to this situation, but has a more general application as well: the advantage of hardware modularity. A dedicated piece of hardware always performs better for a specific purpose than a general one does. It can be more finely tuned, and doesn't have to deal with anything outside it's scope. As long as there is a way for such hardware components to interact with each other, a case can be made for the superiority of a system consisting of individual specialized components. In other words, taking the concepts of object-oriented programming, and applying it to hardware.
  • Also, let's keep in mind the perspective of the end users. While $15k and up for a control system may seem like a lot to spend for some people, to many high end and corporate users $15k is nothing. Think about cars, you could say why would anyone continue to buy Mercedes-Benz when Hyundai is offering cars for under $10,000? They both get you from point A to point B, but let's face it... there will always be buyers for Mercedes-Benz (and of course there will always be buyers for Hyundai).

    Then there's the customer service and support aspect which has been brought up already. If a customer is buying product from a dealer/mass merchandiser who's scraping bottom to compete on the basis of price, they're going to have to sacrifice somewhere and that somewhere is almost always going to be in customer service and capability of the integrator. That's why people are willing to spend more for quality, not just of quality of product but quality of service. And that's one of the nice things about AMX, they don't sign just anyone up to be a dealer and that maintains the quality of the brand name and the quality of our group here.

    --John
  • One of the issues that the current generation of hand held Samsung type computers is that they run Windows. I don't think Windows will ever be in the home automation space. Have you used MS Media Server? 'nuff said. If you try and run some type of Linux, then you have to have drivers for all that Samsung proprietary hardware. Not saying it couldn't be done, but could it be economically competitive and dead reliable? Can you say Windows and reliable in the same sentence :)

    There are too many reliability issues for Window to be used for home automation. My clients don't want to be told they have to reboot their house every day, and wait 5 minutes for the operating system to boot up before they can do anything.
    Paul
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Follow-up
    yuri wrote:
    mr gates used amx or so i've heard. They use meetingmanager in their offices :)
    Just a quick follow up - found this from an older article.
    It is at President Bush?s disposal; Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey and Disney have it. It is a new kind of control, and AMX owns it. AMX, a worldwide leader in advanced control system technology, is giving people the ability to control their electric devices with a simple press of a finger on a touch panel.
  • ipssheldonipssheldon Posts: 106
    The analogy that I like to compare high end home automation to is that this market is no different than any do-it-yourself market for the home. Home Depot and Lowe's sell tons of paint. And you or I can paint any room in our house all day long. But that hasn't stopped companies from making a nice living painting rooms in $1M homes that use the same paint that you or I would buy. But most of the rooms that they paint in the $1M homes take hours or days because the paint has to be put on in many layers to get just the right look for a Faux finish or who knows what. They usually aren't just teh off-white color that a common person would use. Our market, i.e. high end automation is no different. You can do everything yourself and probably have a very nice system. But the home owners that pay an integrator don't just want a nice integrated solution. They want the truly unique system that looks like a work of art on a custom touch panel. And they want everything done for them as a complete package with the best of everything included (not just the control system). If you can offer the same using the low end small Windows CE panels, then more power to you. You can probably carve out a nice business. Manufacturers selling to high end homes will always have a market as long as they are offering very high quality hardware.

    Just my two cents.

    Sheldon Samuels
    IPS Resources LLC
  • Unique solutions

    Sheldon worked hard on his metaphor but I feel it isn't quite right.

    I am paid well to create unique solutions - not that uniquely look pretty (maybe cos I don't have those skills) but that do the unique things my client wants them to do.

    I am still praying for the cookie-cutter job but it hasn't come along yet...
  • ipssheldonipssheldon Posts: 106
    The analogy is that people pay us to provide the solution. Whether it is a plain wall or some one of a kind picture, the fact is that they hire a specialist to provide a solution. They hire painters, pool cleaners, landscape companies, and on and on. The bigger the home, the larger the budget for any of these. And our skills are no different. Home Depot, Walmart, RadioShack, Microsoft will never replace that with a solution in a box.
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    Another factor is that many will pay someone else to do the job because they do not have the time to do it themselves, or do not have the time to develop the skills to do the job the way they would like, even if they have the capacity to actually do it.

    We live in a world of specialists, and often it simply doesn't pay to do work yourself if it's not your specialty. When I was a teenager, I loved working on cars. I thought of a career as an auto mechanic; I think it was the thought of constantly being greasy that changed my mind. But I was good at it. I rebuilt engines, transmissions; I used to buy junk cars and get them in working condition again. Even with all the new technology they have put in cars today, I'm confident that I can do most repairs myself if I really have to. Yet, I haven't so much as done my own oil change in 20 years. Why not? I have better ways to spend my time. I'm perfectly capable of doing the work, and the things I don't know how to do, I could learn. It's just not how I want to spend my time.

    The minister at my church asked me about doing a computer analysis of the acoustics of a new building they put up. I don't him that wasn't quite my field, and that I don't have to sofware or expertise to really do it. He said, "Well Dave, if I buy you the software, could you do it?" I declined ... I told him I could certainly learn the software and eventually get the job done. But he would be far better served to hire someone who was expert in that field and has a day-to-day working knowledge of it. They would do a better job of it, and far more efficiently.

    The only people who will be messing around with their own AV systems are the hobbyists. And they have always been a class to themselves. Everyone else will be looking for an installer or integrator.
  • Can I be a pro and a hobbyist too?

    So I just had a new security system installed, and I talked nicely to the tech and he arranged to send me the serial cable (what a doozy) and the floppy with the info on it.

    (Floppy? What that? I have three PCs and none of them has a floppy drive!)

    So now I can climb in the ceiling and run cables everywhere and connect my spare controller I got on eBay to my security system (and who knows what else) and I can write some rilly juicy code so that I can send an email to my house from anywhere in the world and find out if I am being burgled. And other stuff too.

    Woo hoo! I'm so looking forward to it.

    But in my heart I know that it will probably happen only if one of my clients pays me to write the code.

    Darn...
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    So I just had a new security system installed, and I talked nicely to the tech and he arranged to send me the serial cable (what a doozy) and the floppy with the info on it.

    (Floppy? What that? I have three PCs and none of them has a floppy drive!)

    So now I can climb in the ceiling and run cables everywhere and connect my spare controller I got on eBay to my security system (and who knows what else) and I can write some rilly juicy code so that I can send an email to my house from anywhere in the world and find out if I am being burgled. And other stuff too.

    Woo hoo! I'm so looking forward to it.

    But in my heart I know that it will probably happen only if one of my clients pays me to write the code.

    Darn...
    Funny you should mention that. I have a NetLInx at home, and it's connected right now only to my stereo/home theater system. I have pages on the panel for lighting control, and none of them do a thing. I rent, so my lighting is X-10 (easy to remove when I remove myself), and I even have a code block and X-10 serial controller. I just haven't gotten around to putting it all together (after, um, 3 years).
  • Yeah, I considered wiring up the stereo, but my amp is a Quad 33/303 (British) which sounds very sweet even though it was made so long ago that it doesn't even have an IR remote! You have to get out of your chair! So much for that one!

    (No way will I feed it through a vol3.)

    I lurve doing big residential jobs but you gotta wonder what the punters do it for...
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