HVAC control with no stats?

jisaac

Gentlemen,
my applogies for flooding the forum with newbie questions ( i did use the search option but didnt find anything on this) Im relatively new to AMX and have lots of questions. I hope i dont tick anyone off. Anyhow, is anyone controlling HVAC without using any stats- just direct from the HVAC system?
i have a project going and we didnt prewire for any stats. they are using a Carrier infinity system. Can i control HVAC directly and leave the normal stats in or am i in trouble here?
Thanks again guys.

vining

The Carrier Infinity system has its own proprietary stats but I beleive there is or will be a serial interface to connect with automation systems or so one of my guys recently told me. Check with the HVAC dealer and have them find out. I tried contacting Carrier directly some time ago and just got the run around and was finally told to contact the HVAC dealer who did the install to which I replied maybe I should just talk the builder and architect into specifying a different system that can be integrated.

jisaac

Thanks vining,
there is indeed a SAM (System Access Module) which will allow for 3rd party integration. Theres even a C******n module already available. I guess im headed towards a more philosophical question that provided this situation works out, why would i ever want to fool around with stats again? let the HVAC contractor put in the system with whatever stats he chooses, and just plug into the HVAC controller directly. Wouldnt this be cleaner, simpler and with less things to worry about? or am i missing something here?

vining

That can get a little tricky unless you doing a single zone system. You need some way to sense the temperature in a zone. You then need some way of controlling the circulator or zone valve and then fire the burner while at the same time if a hydro air system turning on the air handler. In a sense you would need to re-invent the wheel in a manner that would likely be more expensive and less reliable.

The Inifity t-stats are effectively communication t-stats that communicate to there own proprietary processor which should allow for a single connetion via the "SAM" to gain access and data from all the connecting zones stats which would make it alot simpler than the AprilAire system.

jisaac

Im starting to understand things a little better now. I spent some time on the carrier site and reviewing HVAC in general and i think things are becoming a little clearer.

In the case of the carrier infinity system, the scenario where the HVAC contractors stats would stay and we would only interface to the HVAC system itself is possible because of the amount of built-in interface tools the Carrier infinity system happens to have, inclusive an access board for remote web management & RS232 control.

Im thinking now that this will seldom be the case. Im assuming most HVAC systems wont have these built in features, in which case controlling the stat is the ONLY way to control HVAC with proper feedback.

For future refrence, whenever control tools/ports such as those available from Carrier Infinity are present, i will allow the HVAC contractor to design his system his way with his equipment and just pipe control directly into the HVAC system itself.
For the most part though, i believe we will be dealing with many an AMX stat and will prewire accordingly from here on.

Ive learned alot on this one. great topic for me. if anyone knows of any other HVAC systems that have as robust a control set as the Infinity please chime in.
thanks.

alexanbo

I prefer letting the HVAC contractor do his thing and then talking to their central controller. Especially if you have a zone that has both radiant heating and forced air as the AMX stats don't handle this all that well. This way also lets you allow the HVAC guy to setup his system and prove that it all works before you hook up to it so you can prevent some of the finger pointing that goes on if something goes wrong.

The Bryant Evolution system also works... of course it's just a rebranded Carrier System. The problem with the Carrier system would be is it's limited to 8 stats per system and you could use the SAM module to talk to two systems. Also that SAM modules needs to use the Skytel pager network to enable web management though I have heard they were working on a LAN interface.

TrikinCurt

Has anyone got a hold of the "Carrier ASCII Protocol Information
for Infinity Communicating HVAC System" document? Turns out that is what was speced for my home addition so I am excited to try this out.

Some day I will pick out a piece of gear or equipment that already has an amx module written for it. Someday...

Curt

jisaac

I should be getting my hands on it by way of the carrier dealer thats doing the house were working on. As soon as i get my hands on it ill put it up for others to grab.

TrikinCurt

Thanks, I will try through mine as well, but since he doesn't know what the Systems Access Module is I am not sure he will know the right questions to ask Carrier...

Curt

ericthompson

HVAC with no pre-wired stats

I am still relatively new as well, but if you want to use the AMX or Aprilaire thermostats, you could put them all in the basement with the 8818 distribution panel. They would all get wired with cat-5 and then RS-422 back to the controller. Each thermostat would be replaced by the 8062 TrH support module, so you can monitor/control temperature and humidity. The negatives would be thermostats are in the basement if the homeowner needed to get to them in the even of an AMX outage, but you wouldn't have quite as much wall acne with the compact 8062's replacing the thermostats.

vining

Although the Carrier Infinity system w/ the SAM module (SYSTXCCSAM01) should simplify integration (providing any one ever gets a hold of the protocol) the required proprietary T-Stats are butt ugly and I don't think they have the ability to incorporate flush in wall temp sensors like the AprilAire system.

the8thst

Here is the info again.

If anyone finishes a working module for this I would really like to take a look at it. The job that I needed this info for fell through and I have not had the time to work on the module at all.

Thanks.

TrikinCurt

I guess design is in the eye of the beholder? I think they look good, and yes, the work with remote sensors.

Curt

TrikinCurt

You made my day! I needed that protocol. I will get a module done, but it will be awhile yet. I have to Carrier Infinity systems being installed in my house and this was the missing link, thanks!

Curt

vining

TrikinCurt wrote:

I think they look good, and yes, the work with remote sensors.

OK, maybe saying they are butt ugly was a little harsh but it's nice to know they located remotely and flush sensors put in there place. (so I don't have to look at them!)

TrikinCurt

Woohoo, sometimes you get lucky... Carrier system (dual system) is just getting finished, touch panels just getting put in, and today AMX released a Duet driver so I don't have to write one!

Anyway, for those looking, they put up a driver supporting two systems (18 thermostats)...

Curt

flcusat

TrikinCurt wrote:

Woohoo, sometimes you get lucky... Carrier system (dual system) is just getting finished, touch panels just getting put in, and today AMX released a Duet driver so I don't have to write one!

Anyway, for those looking, they put up a driver supporting two systems (18 thermostats)...

Curt

Curt, Could you provide more info about what you have been able to achieve regarding this Infinity System? In the job that I'm just about to start the HVAC contractor, just replaced the 4 existing units with Carrier Infinity Series units and I'm afraid that they won't be of too much help with the integration, so I'm gonna need to do my homework. I agreed with Vining that the their thermostat are really bulky and not necessarily the best looking thermostat out there.