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Any Dvorak typist ;)s out there?

jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
in AMX General Discussion
Is there anyone that uses the Dvorak layout rather than the "standard" QWERTY keyboard? I'm looking into this keyboard layout, and plan to start practice using it next tomorrow (not with programming though.) I wonder if using the Dvorak would help with programming considering most of use use Hungarian notation, rather than actual words in our code.

I'm starting to feel some very slight pains when typing, and started looking for alternatives and have heard about the Dvorak keyboard, just wondering if anyone has had any REAL experience with it (using it for 1 day doesn't quite qualify as "using it". ;))

Edit - talk about a big typo - wish I could rename the thread. . . . perhaps a little help from Suzanne to remove 
;)
from the title? :D

Comments

  • a_riot42a_riot42 Posts: 1,624
    I haven't tried it but a former coworker of mine uses it. He obviously thought it was a worthwhile thing to learn and thought he could type faster as well. I will give it a go one of these days too I think.
    Paul
  • REBUILD_EVENTREBUILD_EVENT Posts: 127
    I have changed an old keyboard of mine to dvorak. I started using it, but I was sooooooo slow and suddenly I lost my motivation... I find it hard enough to type without watching with the QWERTZ (jep I live in the old world) -keyboard
  • REBUILD_EVENTREBUILD_EVENT Posts: 127
    I am just wondering: How would you change to Dvorak in Windows XP? can't find ...
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Control Panel -> Regional and Language Options -> Language Tab -> Details... -> Add -> Click Keyboard layout/IME and select United States-Dvorak.
    REBUILD_EVENT wrote:
    I have changed an old keyboard of mine to dvorak. I started using it, but I was sooooooo slow and suddenly I lost my motivation... I find it hard enough to type without watching with the QWERTZ (jep I live in the old world) -keyboard
    I read that it took a group of typists 52 hours to reach the speed they had obtained with QWERTY in 3 years. So - a week of using it should get the job done.
  • REBUILD_EVENTREBUILD_EVENT Posts: 127
    jjames wrote:
    Control Panel -> Regional and Language Options -> Language Tab -> Details... -> Add -> Click Keyboard layout/IME and select United States-Dvorak.

    I read that it took a group of typists 52 hours to reach the speed they had obtained with QWERTY in 3 years. So - a week of using it should get the job done.


    I dont have no dvorak there... :-( maybe cos I live in the old world
  • a_riot42a_riot42 Posts: 1,624
    You may want to check out some of the Dvorak derivatives, like Developers Dvorak (ddvorak) if you program alot. Dvoark puts the bracket and parentheses keys out of easy reach since they are not used alot in normal English. Programmers though, use them all the time so ddvorak puts them in a better place. I think I will give it a try soon, although you will need a keymapper like smartkeys if you are going to try a custom configuration.

    I found a page and I will see if I can find it, that allowed you to enter text into a text box and the script would estimate the finger distance for each keyboard configuration. It really showed how bad qwerty is.
    Paul
  • jweatherjweather Posts: 320
    I switched as a teenager because I was bored. It easily took several hundred hours of typing to match my QWERTY speed at the time (~90wpm). I currently type 110wpm in Dvorak according to typingtest.com.

    You'll find lots of people arguing both sides of the question, but the two points I agree with are:
    - Dvorak encourages alternation between hands when typing English words (increasing speed)
    - Dvorak reduces the total finger-travel distance when typing English words by putting more common letters on the home row and in the home columns of the index fingers. (increasing speed and reducing fatigue)

    It's more comfortable for me to type in Dvorak, but I can't really say how much of that is habit and how much is due to the layout itself. I can still type ~90wpm in QWERTY, but tend to avoid it when I can.

    I wouldn't recommend switching specifically to improve programming productivity... some of the brackets and other punctuation are in less convenient places, and the slow down will last several months before you are up to your previous speed.

    I'd also venture to guess that as long as you can type 70wpm or more, your typing speed should be hampering your programming speed less than your thinking speed. :) If you're really doing that much typing, stop and think up a simpler way to do it (less code). Doesn't apply to writing user documentation, unfortunately...
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    jweather wrote:
    I'd also venture to guess that as long as you can type 70wpm or more, your typing speed should be hampering your programming speed less than your thinking speed. :) If you're really doing that much typing, stop and think up a simpler way to do it (less code). Doesn't apply to writing user documentation, unfortunately...

    Check out Dragon Naturally Speaking if you want to reduce finger fatigue from writing customer docs :) The new version claims 99% accuracy and you don't need to read scripts to begin (altho it helps). If only I could set it up to allow me to dictate programming efficiently.


    Jeff
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    a_riot42 wrote:
    You may want to check out some of the Dvorak derivatives, like Developers Dvorak (ddvorak) if you program alot. Dvoark puts the bracket and parentheses keys out of easy reach since they are not used alot in normal English. Programmers though, use them all the time so ddvorak puts them in a better place. I think I will give it a try soon, although you will need a keymapper like smartkeys if you are going to try a custom configuration.

    I found a page and I will see if I can find it, that allowed you to enter text into a text box and the script would estimate the finger distance for each keyboard configuration. It really showed how bad qwerty is.
    Paul
    Found a site that shows the DDvorak layout, etc. Looks promising, though I haven't tried it yet.

    As for the site that you mentioned about, perhaps you meant this one:http://www.acm.vt.edu/~jmaxwell/dvorak/comparePage.html

    I copied in this entire post, and the results are quite interesting.

    The main reason why I *might* want to switch, is because of the awkwardness I'm feeling in my hands. Plus, it's started to feel like I'm getting trigger-finger, and it hurts like a son-of-a-gun some days to type. Hoping this will help a little bit. For some reason I think that no matter how long you've been on a computer (18 years for me, and I'm 24 right now), that with the QWERTY layout, it'll really catch up to you. Perhaps our schools need to start focusing on an alternative keyboard layout, such as Dvorak or maybe something else, since I see a lot more jobs now requiring computer skills. Who knows?!?

    Anyway, I think I might try and implement the DDvorak layout today and see how it goes.
  • filpeefilpee Posts: 64
    I had a go at Dvorak a few years ago but my biggest complaint against it was that all the standard windows shortcuts (ctrl-c, ctrl-v, ctrl-x etc) became awkward.

    Having become so used to keyboard shortcuts I found Dvorak to be unsuitable for myself.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    filpee wrote:
    I had a go at Dvorak a few years ago but my biggest complaint against it was that all the standard windows shortcuts (ctrl-c, ctrl-v, ctrl-x etc) became awkward.

    Having become so used to keyboard shortcuts I found Dvorak to be unsuitable for myself.
    I see what you're saying. This is the link to the DDvorak keyboard layout that I am looking into.

    http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/DDvorak.aspx

    He makes three keys that have been moved for cut copy and paste along with the "save" shortcut. I too have become very shortcut orientated, and would certainly have to relearn my NS shortcuts I've made.
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    jjames wrote:
    He makes three keys that have been moved for cut copy and paste along with the "save" shortcut. I too have become very shortcut orientated, and would certainly have to relearn my NS shortcuts I've made.

    If they are NetLinx Studio shortcuts, you should be able to remap the shortcuts to use the appropriate keys on the Dvorak keypad. This should allow you to maintain the same position on the keyboard, even if the shortcut letters don't make sense anymore.

    Jeff
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Spire_Jeff wrote:
    If they are NetLinx Studio shortcuts, you should be able to remap the shortcuts to use the appropriate keys on the Dvorak keypad. This should allow you to maintain the same position on the keyboard, even if the shortcut letters don't make sense anymore.
    Yeah, thought of that after I posted. I took several typing tests online and with some Mavis Beacon program (which I quickly uninstalled after installing - was stupid), and I'm averaging 75 WPM. I have been looking into other keyboard layouts that may make things a little bit less stressful on the hands in programming (this is where most of my typing is done during the day). Dvorak may not be the way to go, but the ddvorak or Programmer Dvorak might be. I'm still investigating . . . the main problem with the Dvorak (which was already stated I believe) is the lack of ease when using the semicolon, and other often used symbols.

    Since most of my code is now modular, and there is a significant amount of pasting (and using a predefined template when starting from scratch), the amount of typing isn't very much - but is aggravating to the hands nonetheless. *Sigh* We'll see, it's definitely not on the top of my priority list.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Solution found!!

    Aha! Found the answer to my problem. I can arrange this any way I want!! And have it be a visual rearrangement too without having to remove keys!
    http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

    . . . now I just need $1500! Hmmm - maybe the company will buy it for me. ;) (Doubtful!!)

    Edit: I just noticed $450 was for a single configurable button - the space bar. In order to have all of the buttons configurable, you gotta fork up another grand!!
  • a_riot42a_riot42 Posts: 1,624
    jjames wrote:
    I see what you're saying. This is the link to the DDvorak keyboard layout that I am looking into.

    http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/DDvorak.aspx

    He makes three keys that have been moved for cut copy and paste along with the "save" shortcut. I too have become very shortcut orientated, and would certainly have to relearn my NS shortcuts I've made.

    Yes it was a similar script as that but it also had ddvorak and colemak. Colemak has the semi colon and brackets in a better place. If you spend half your time writing english and the other have writing code, there doesn't appear to be any optimal configuration. One thing that you have to do in programming which never occurs in English is typing words that have multiple capital letters like isTPAccessEnabled and the like.

    I have developed some bad typing habits that I could get rid of if I was to switch to a different configuration. I tend to use the shift key with the same hand that is going to type the capital letter rather than alternating.

    But there are so many words in the English language that require only one hand to type so it is bound to be inefficient. Dvorak cuts way down on those and the words that are like that are short. Try typing this sentence:

    Abracadabra aftereffects aftertastes afterwards cabbages crabgrasses databases desegregated gazettes readdressed reverberated stagecraft steadfast stewardesses sweetbreads tradecrafts vertebrates wastewaters watercrafts watercress.
    Paul
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    I broke down and picked up Dragon's NaturallySpeaking software a couple days ago. I must say that it is 2000x better than the version I tried a few years ago. My computer is a little slow for it, but it functions properly. I still need to help it out a little, but I tend to mumble at times. Right now, I would say I am seeing about a 90-95% accuracy. I only read a little script that took about 5-10 minutes to read, but even that is optional.

    This won't help me with programming, but it will definitely help with writing documentation. I suppose I could even use it for comments in code if I really wanted. The other place it's nice is when I'm stuck in traffic. I just pop open the laptop and start dictating. I can work out a list of programming tasks, random thoughts, whatever. If you splurge and get the pro version, it will also read back the text, and even transpose dictation from those little voice recorder devices.

    Ohhh, that $1500.00 keyboard is pretty cool looking, but I doubt I could talk the boss into that either.

    Jeff
  • Rocket_RodRocket_Rod Posts: 2
    The Real Issue

    sounds to me the issue is not your keyboard but RSI (repitive strain injury), probably from all the good work :)
    i know of a few people that have this from typing and it can be really painfull, there is help if you search the web, the only success i have heard of is a pilates stretching type excersizes for the arms and hands, the one guy i know swears by it.
    good luck.
  • jweatherjweather Posts: 320
    If you're having pain/fatigue, definitely play around with ergonomics -- get a wrist-rest, change the angle on your keyboard if it has little flip-up legs. Even just changing your chair height can help. If you're typing on a laptop, get a full-size USB keyboard to use when you're in the office. If you can't make any improvement with your current keyboard, try a different cheap one with an easier touch, or pick up a Microsoft Natural Keyboard for $50 new, or probably cheaper on eBay.

    I'd guess that switching layouts probably won't help with fatigue immediately, and may even aggravate it initially since you'll be concentrating so much on the typing.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    jweather wrote: »
    If you're having pain/fatigue, definitely play around with ergonomics -- get a wrist-rest, change the angle on your keyboard if it has little flip-up legs. Even just changing your chair height can help. If you're typing on a laptop, get a full-size USB keyboard to use when you're in the office. If you can't make any improvement with your current keyboard, try a different cheap one with an easier touch, or pick up a Microsoft Natural Keyboard for $50 new, or probably cheaper on eBay.

    I'd guess that switching layouts probably won't help with fatigue immediately, and may even aggravate it initially since you'll be concentrating so much on the typing.
    I hate dragging up old topics, but thought I'd update everyone.

    I'm going to agree with Jeremy in that it's not the keyboard. Over the past few months I've been experiencing my fingers locking when I wake up from sleeping and throughout the day and it's VERY painful to "unlock" them in. After looking into it a bit and not going to the doctors yet, I'm going to guess it's "trigger finger."

    Anyone ever have problems with trigger finger? What should I expect?
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