I'd agree. I don't think the language is nearly as obsolete as the development environment. Instead of trying to get engineers and programmers to adopt an entirely new language, fixing and updating the current environment would make huge strides in delivery to the customer. A functional debug environment, especially within modules, would cut troubleshooting time in half. Little things like Netbeans integration of psvm automatically filling out public static void main would be awesome with regularly used syntax.
There are tons of additional things that would make NetLinx a much more pleasant language to code in. I've found very very few things I wanted to do that I thought the language was in the way, and I honestly don't need a compiler to tell me where in the line the problem is, as long as it can finger the correct line. Just get the development environment up to snuff before running off and adopting something new.
For any faults they may have they still do a ** MUCH ** better job than a certain other company, believe me.
If ** THAT ** Companies name starts with C and ends in restron then I totally agree with you. I thought the software AMX has was crap, but compared to theirs it's far better.
(When someone asks I always say that company C's software is like windows 95, and that A's software is like windows 98. They're both crap but 98 still takes the lead.)
Perhaps they need a good competitor to shake things up.
Btw to clarify my statements.
The look and feel of C's software and the stability is windows 95 like
The look and feel of A's software and the stability is windows 98 like
And there's little to no development software and hardware wise at both companies. The guy who was giving the programming course at AMX London agreed with me on that as well.
Afaik there are 40 people (worldwide) on R & D. And there is far too little development to justify more than 0.1 people. Same goes for company C though they have 3 people in belgium working on modules and stuff all day.
I'm really disappointed when it comes to the software and hardware tbh. There are a lot of great open-source IDE's out there. (Eclipse, Netbeans ) that work in a way better way than the current programming for A/C is atm.
And I shouldn't even start with their software for graphics.. It makes me.. Cry..On..The..Inside..
(GuiFX pulls off a really good job considering the crap you have to put up with to make it all work on A/C Systems)
In "defense" of the argument that it's stability and look ranks with Windows 98, I'd have to say who cares what it looks like. I'm running Vista right now, with no Aero, and looks like a server machine. All gray . . . for the longest time I had the blue background of a server machine. At home on the other hand, I run various skinning programs, and whatnot. Point is - I (as I'm sure most hard core programmer would agree) could almost care less what it looks like as long as it works. Sure, I get a little excited when things look a little newer, but really don't care.
If you want some software that's sexy looking, use Vantage or Control4 . . . then compare WHAT you can do with them.
As far as stability - I disagree it's Windows 98. I wouldn't compare it to an OS of any sorts, but I think it's much more stable than what people wine and complain about. There were a few revisions of NS that I went ballistic on that they even released it, and have felt for the longest time that their focus on the core tools is way off - but I feel that's all changing.
Look at the recent firmware developments. Super stable (especially the R4), and they're delivering what we're asking for (recent Duet firmware.) I think this is going to be the norm and not the exception.
Hardware development - yeah, I'd have to agree with you, the stuff seems a bit behind the times . . . BUT it works. AMX isn't Apple, or some humongous company that has millions, and millions, and millions to put into a new product every 8-12 months. We haven't seen anything amazingly new from them recently - but I'm smelling some good stuff coming . . . I can sense it. A company doesn't hold out this long and deliver some namby-pamby stuff.
In "defense" of the argument that it's stability and look ranks with Windows 98, I'd have to say who cares what it looks like. I'm running Vista right now, with no Aero, and looks like a server machine. All gray . . . for the longest time I had the blue background of a server machine. At home on the other hand, I run various skinning programs, and whatnot. Point is - I (as I'm sure most hard core programmer would agree) could almost care less what it looks like as long as it works. Sure, I get a little excited when things look a little newer, but really don't care.
Let me clarify: "Look and feel" does not just mean if it looks good or not, I'm also talking about usability the way things are positioned the things they all do etc etc. (Also I don't like your way of talking about it, it's like saying. That code that's 50% faster, much more stable etc is the same as the program that's slower etc..)
As far as stability - I disagree it's Windows 98. I wouldn't compare it to an OS of any sorts, but I think it's much more stable than what people wine and complain about. There were a few revisions of NS that I went ballistic on that they even released it, and have felt for the longest time that their focus on the core tools is way off - but I feel that's all changing.
TPD4 & NS3 have crashed on me for reasons that still make me wonder. (just clicking the middle of the program making it crash, clicking a menu item and all of a sudden no button works anymore. (I could spent about 30 minutes listing reasons so lemme stop here)
Look at the recent firmware developments. Super stable (especially the R4), and they're delivering what we're asking for (recent Duet firmware.) I think this is going to be the norm and not the exception.
Hardware development - yeah, I'd have to agree with you, the stuff seems a bit behind the times . . . BUT it works. AMX isn't Apple, or some humongous company that has millions, and millions, and millions to put into a new product every 8-12 months. We haven't seen anything amazingly new from them recently - but I'm smelling some good stuff coming . . . I can sense it. A company doesn't hold out this long and deliver some namby-pamby stuff.
I've had so many issues lately it's made me cry, like new firmware breaking more than fixing etc. And I haven't been programming amx for very long either. (about 3 months)
Can't argue with you on the amx != apple thing, nonetheless they could at least look at other markets and pick the good things from those.
I haven't seen anything amazing from them at all, nothing innovating etc.
It does if the competitor isn't doing much either.
Now I don't mean to sound all negative, because most of it works ok. But it's just not what I'd expect it to be.
If you like Eclipse as an editor, you can use it for AMX. How you ask?
a) Program in Duet. Duet uses Eclipse and yes, it is a wonderful IDE. I am programming more and more of the code I develop in Duet, largely for this reason.
b) Use Eclipse as your editor and compile in Studio or even use the command line compiler/downloader. I haven't done this, although I know that it has been discussed. Duet, within Eclipse, is essentially doing the same thing when you compile the Netlinx AXS file that goes along with Duet. Someone with a bit of creativity could probably get the command line compiler and/or Eclipse to do both.
Should AMX built this for us, probably, but if their resources are building newer and better products, I'd rather have the resources spent there than simply on a better tool to develop programs for.
Just my opinion.
Sheldon Samuels
SchoolView Technologies, LLC
I am aware of that. I was suggesting that to Nerieru. I haven't had the need to use it myself, although I am very tempted to do so. I just haven't had time to really think through the procedure as to how I would apply this to my own workflow.
I think too many times we all get stuck in a rut and forget to look for better alternatives and expect the mother ship (AMX in this case) to spoon feed us the various options. Sometimes you have to step back and create your own enhancements. That's why I've spent so much time learning and working with Duet because I can see the value in what it can do and how much easier it can make my life as a programmer. I think the command line compiler could be one of those enhancements if implemented into a workflow correctly.
I am aware of that. I was suggesting that to Nerieru. I haven't had the need to use it myself, although I am very tempted to do so. I just haven't had time to really think through the procedure as to how I would apply this to my own workflow.
I think too many times we all get stuck in a rut and forget to look for better alternatives and expect the mother ship (AMX in this case) to spoon feed us the various options. Sometimes you have to step back and create your own enhancements. That's why I've spent so much time learning and working with Duet because I can see the value in what it can do and how much easier it can make my life as a programmer. I think the command line compiler could be one of those enhancements if implemented into a workflow correctly.
Thing is caf? duet costs money, and I can't justify it to my boss yet. However I did hear that you get a copy for free if you finish the course. Unfortunately there are no courses in my area. (and I still need to get programmer 2 Y_Y, the soonest course is from 17-21 May which is quite far away. In my area.)
And the soonest in the UK is March 29th till 2nd of April. And London stinks (literally) I also don't get why the courses are 5 days, as I found the first one to be so easy that I just browsed around for 4 days. (finishing the assignments in between of course)
However I don't see any Caf? Duet courses planned for 2010 (belgium or UK)
Could anyone clarify the costs of caf? duet/the course? Thank you.
@jjames I have been doing GUI design for longer so that's why I find your way of saying it isn't important offensive :P. But I'll give you some slack and consider it "programmer's ignorance" Though you are right about my expectations.
@sheldon it would be great if there was a plugin for netbeans though, as I find that one even greater. (Btw I do love that I should be able to program natively on my mac using those IDE's (except for the compiling I guess))
I remember seeing a quote, unfortunately I can't remember who by, but it was "Apple discovered that a $1 investment in design is worth much more than investing $1 in technology." That being said, design does not just refer to eye candy, user interaction and user experience are design practices.
As with Nerieru I guess I'm biased though as prior to being an AMX programmer I was a front-end developer.
IMHO NetLinx Studio is functional but compared to modern IDE's it is really is lacking, especially when it comes to debugging. With Duet development already taking place in Eclipse I would love nothing more that to see AMX extend Eclipse for use with NetLinx development as well. I've ranted about this in other posts so I won't go on about it here again, but I would be prepared to offer my firstborn to whoever kicks this off.
@Nerieru if you come down to Australia they do P2 in 3 days. Transit time might counteract this though.
I remember seeing a quote, unfortunately I can't remember who by, but it was "Apple discovered that a $1 investment in design is worth much more than investing $1 in technology." That being said, design does not just refer to eye candy, user interaction and user experience are design practices.
As with Nerieru I guess I'm biased though as prior to being an AMX programmer I was a front-end developer.
IMHO NetLinx Studio is functional but compared to modern IDE's it is really is lacking, especially when it comes to debugging. With Duet development already taking place in Eclipse I would love nothing more that to see AMX extend Eclipse for use with NetLinx development as well. I've ranted about this in other posts so I won't go on about it here again, but I would be prepared to offer my firstborn to whoever kicks this off.
@Nerieru if you come down to Australia they do P2 in 3 days. Transit time might counteract this though.
Thanks Kim, but unfortunately I have too much work too do. Hence I can't go down to aussie even though I'd like to. (and when I look on the calendar I only see P1 in 4 days)
I heard that cafe duet is apparently 1900 ? in my area (we get a better deal, but this is the price in the price list we got from AMX)
But I read that it costs only 1000$ in the US. (1900? = 2,797.56$) Which seems to be waaaaaaaaaaaay off..
Completely agreed with all that.
Duet is too expensive and AMX doesn't even give a chance to "try & buy".
the big problem with "try and buy" is the lack of documentation, training and support. It is really a cool and powerful product, but you really need to have some good Java experience. The big issue is much of the "plumbing" between Duet and the Netlinx side is poorly documented.
the big problem with "try and buy" is the lack of documentation, training and support. It is really a cool and powerful product, but you really need to have some good Java experience. The big issue is much of the "plumbing" between Duet and the Netlinx side is poorly documented.
this seems to be the effect of what is a very open programming communicty (JAVA) and a very closed one. (AMX) consequently, documentation on what might be usefull between the two entities gets a little muddled. You do have access if you take the cleasses.
Comments
There are tons of additional things that would make NetLinx a much more pleasant language to code in. I've found very very few things I wanted to do that I thought the language was in the way, and I honestly don't need a compiler to tell me where in the line the problem is, as long as it can finger the correct line. Just get the development environment up to snuff before running off and adopting something new.
J
If ** THAT ** Companies name starts with C and ends in restron then I totally agree with you. I thought the software AMX has was crap, but compared to theirs it's far better.
(When someone asks I always say that company C's software is like windows 95, and that A's software is like windows 98. They're both crap but 98 still takes the lead.)
Perhaps they need a good competitor to shake things up.
Btw to clarify my statements.
The look and feel of C's software and the stability is windows 95 like
The look and feel of A's software and the stability is windows 98 like
And there's little to no development software and hardware wise at both companies. The guy who was giving the programming course at AMX London agreed with me on that as well.
Afaik there are 40 people (worldwide) on R & D. And there is far too little development to justify more than 0.1 people. Same goes for company C though they have 3 people in belgium working on modules and stuff all day.
I'm really disappointed when it comes to the software and hardware tbh. There are a lot of great open-source IDE's out there. (Eclipse, Netbeans
And I shouldn't even start with their software for graphics.. It makes me.. Cry..On..The..Inside..
(GuiFX pulls off a really good job considering the crap you have to put up with to make it all work on A/C Systems)
If you want some software that's sexy looking, use Vantage or Control4 . . . then compare WHAT you can do with them.
As far as stability - I disagree it's Windows 98. I wouldn't compare it to an OS of any sorts, but I think it's much more stable than what people wine and complain about. There were a few revisions of NS that I went ballistic on that they even released it, and have felt for the longest time that their focus on the core tools is way off - but I feel that's all changing.
Look at the recent firmware developments. Super stable (especially the R4), and they're delivering what we're asking for (recent Duet firmware.) I think this is going to be the norm and not the exception.
Hardware development - yeah, I'd have to agree with you, the stuff seems a bit behind the times . . . BUT it works. AMX isn't Apple, or some humongous company that has millions, and millions, and millions to put into a new product every 8-12 months. We haven't seen anything amazingly new from them recently - but I'm smelling some good stuff coming . . . I can sense it. A company doesn't hold out this long and deliver some namby-pamby stuff.
Let me clarify: "Look and feel" does not just mean if it looks good or not, I'm also talking about usability the way things are positioned the things they all do etc etc. (Also I don't like your way of talking about it, it's like saying. That code that's 50% faster, much more stable etc is the same as the program that's slower etc..)
The UI of those are much better nonetheless, it's about the software you USE to make it, not what you can do with it.
TPD4 & NS3 have crashed on me for reasons that still make me wonder. (just clicking the middle of the program making it crash, clicking a menu item and all of a sudden no button works anymore. (I could spent about 30 minutes listing reasons so lemme stop here)
I hope that'll hold true
I've had so many issues lately it's made me cry, like new firmware breaking more than fixing etc. And I haven't been programming amx for very long either. (about 3 months)
Can't argue with you on the amx != apple thing, nonetheless they could at least look at other markets and pick the good things from those.
I haven't seen anything amazing from them at all, nothing innovating etc.
It does if the competitor isn't doing much either.
Now I don't mean to sound all negative, because most of it works ok. But it's just not what I'd expect it to be.
a) Program in Duet. Duet uses Eclipse and yes, it is a wonderful IDE. I am programming more and more of the code I develop in Duet, largely for this reason.
b) Use Eclipse as your editor and compile in Studio or even use the command line compiler/downloader. I haven't done this, although I know that it has been discussed. Duet, within Eclipse, is essentially doing the same thing when you compile the Netlinx AXS file that goes along with Duet. Someone with a bit of creativity could probably get the command line compiler and/or Eclipse to do both.
Should AMX built this for us, probably, but if their resources are building newer and better products, I'd rather have the resources spent there than simply on a better tool to develop programs for.
Just my opinion.
Sheldon Samuels
SchoolView Technologies, LLC
Sheldon, AMX uses a command line compiler that's readily available if you have NS installed on your computer.
I think too many times we all get stuck in a rut and forget to look for better alternatives and expect the mother ship (AMX in this case) to spoon feed us the various options. Sometimes you have to step back and create your own enhancements. That's why I've spent so much time learning and working with Duet because I can see the value in what it can do and how much easier it can make my life as a programmer. I think the command line compiler could be one of those enhancements if implemented into a workflow correctly.
Thing is caf? duet costs money, and I can't justify it to my boss yet. However I did hear that you get a copy for free if you finish the course. Unfortunately there are no courses in my area. (and I still need to get programmer 2 Y_Y, the soonest course is from 17-21 May which is quite far away. In my area.)
And the soonest in the UK is March 29th till 2nd of April. And London stinks (literally) I also don't get why the courses are 5 days, as I found the first one to be so easy that I just browsed around for 4 days. (finishing the assignments in between of course)
However I don't see any Caf? Duet courses planned for 2010 (belgium or UK)
Could anyone clarify the costs of caf? duet/the course? Thank you.
@jjames I have been doing GUI design for longer so that's why I find your way of saying it isn't important offensive :P. But I'll give you some slack and consider it "programmer's ignorance"
@sheldon it would be great if there was a plugin for netbeans though, as I find that one even greater.
As with Nerieru I guess I'm biased though as prior to being an AMX programmer I was a front-end developer.
IMHO NetLinx Studio is functional but compared to modern IDE's it is really is lacking, especially when it comes to debugging. With Duet development already taking place in Eclipse I would love nothing more that to see AMX extend Eclipse for use with NetLinx development as well. I've ranted about this in other posts so I won't go on about it here again, but I would be prepared to offer my firstborn to whoever kicks this off.
@Nerieru if you come down to Australia they do P2 in 3 days. Transit time might counteract this though.
Thanks Kim, but unfortunately I have too much work too do. Hence I can't go down to aussie even though I'd like to. (and when I look on the calendar I only see P1 in 4 days)
I heard that cafe duet is apparently 1900 ? in my area (we get a better deal, but this is the price in the price list we got from AMX)
But I read that it costs only 1000$ in the US. (1900? = 2,797.56$) Which seems to be waaaaaaaaaaaay off..
the big problem with "try and buy" is the lack of documentation, training and support. It is really a cool and powerful product, but you really need to have some good Java experience. The big issue is much of the "plumbing" between Duet and the Netlinx side is poorly documented.
this seems to be the effect of what is a very open programming communicty (JAVA) and a very closed one. (AMX) consequently, documentation on what might be usefull between the two entities gets a little muddled. You do have access if you take the cleasses.