AVstaffing
staticattic
Posts: 200
I have been contacted by AVStaffing regarding hiring an AMX Programmer. Anyone heard of or dealt with this company? I looked up their webpage and it seems to me, they specialize in contract work. Not bad, except as a contractor, I would have to go where the money is. To me, that means a lot of travel. I am interested in seeing what they are willing to bring to the table, but it would be nice to talk to someone other than their hiring staff. Any comments?
0
Comments
DEFINE_FUNCTION make_an_amx_max_work(){ // Who in the WORLD could accomplish this task? // For $100k a year plus benefits, your company could! // // // }It's not unusual to ask for code samples in a programming-related interview. However, your interviewer probably won't make sense of it. If your interviewer isn't a programmer, they'll usuaully have your code looked at by existing programmers. If they don't have programmers, then it'll be looked at either by a friend programmer or a current contractor. Oh, and code usually isn't really looked at anyway - it's more proof that you actually do the job rather than experience in most interview cases. This is also why you give them SAMPLES, not the entire project.
That, and not every company is out to pick up imaginary property and use it in their projects.
What is with the "Keep all my imaginary rights CLOSE and NEVER SHARE" mindset of most AMX programmers? It's almost like all of our customers are assumed to be masochists.
staticattic, regarding the company you posted, I've never heard of them. Let us know whether they're good or not if you head in that direction. Good luck.
I don't know if I agree with this.
In my case, for example, I program for a company. All work done in this case is a 'work for hire' So, I, as the programmer, do not own any copyright. In this case, the company I work for owns the intellectual property.
Now, if you're freelancing, the case is more-than-likely the same in that if you write code for someone else on a contract basis, that too counts as a work for hire. The code writer doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. If they got paid the contract amount, then the buyer owns the code.
As far as independent programmers go, the only way they can lay claim to thier code is for them to create something that can be costrued as a 'product' they sell. So, If I wrote a set of code that was the same in many cases and sold it for a standard fee, then it's my intellectual property. If any of the code your write is somewhat custom in nature and written under contract, then you don't own the code.
I don't know how many programmers I've met who don't seem to understand this. The only reason I do is that I worked as a music producer in the music industry for many years and had to deal with copyright contracts and whatnot. I asked my music lawyer about this very issue a while back and he assured me that this is true for programmers as well.
Now... turning back to the prospective employer asking for code samples...
Asking for code samples in a job interview only shows that the employer doesn't understand the nature of intellectual property.
Here's another analogy that might make it easier to see.
"So, I see by your resume that you were a programmer for Microsoft's Word 2007. May I see some samples of your work for evaluation?" The programmer is in violation if he/she gives out samples of the source code.
The proper response to this kind of inquirey is to politely remind the interviewer that you cannot under ethical obligation release code that is intellectual property of someone other than yourself and I remind you that I would treat your intellectual property with the same respect.
(Edited to add..)
I just emailed my lawyer again. Here's what he said:
about the only way you, as a programmer, could make a claim of owning the intellectual property would be something along the lines of:
Eric's Home theater/whole house control system copyright ejm 2008
You will buy the following AMX gear with no subtitutionsn.... etc....
You will buy all the following AV gear with no subtitutions... etc...
I, or a qualified representative of me will hook up all gear to the control system in the follwing way, no exceptions....
You will get the following Control Panel with my layout with no exceptions.... etc...
Any change of this system will result in voiding any expressed waranty.
This qualifies as the programmers intellectual property.
What you brought up has been a hot topic at work lately. Another contracting company works with some of the same equipment we do. As such, we both have the military as a customer. Now, in order to "streamline" all conference rooms, they have asked for copies of my source code and TP files so they can make theirs match. Sort of like, "let me look at your answer so I can make sure mine is right." Their argument is that technically, the government owns all intellectual rights to my code. That being the case, it isn't up to me to tell them no. Like you said, if my government representatives tell me I have to give it out, I really don't think I have a leg to stand on. Thanks for the example. I understand what you are saying.
IRT keeping "all my imaginary rights CLOSE and NEVER SHARE mindset", I kind of look at it like letting people copy from my paper. Like when I first started programming, my very first programming job was controlling a Tandberg 8000, along with VCR / DVD control, Extron 128 control, and swapping inputs on the 2 plasma screens that come with an 8000. I worked pretty hard on that project. Basic control of the Tandberg was easy, however manipulating strings for doing different things really gave me a hard time. I spent many hours trying different things, looking at string manipulations, etc. If they were in an active VTC and selected a PC as an input the Tandberg should automatically go to DuoVideo and the TP should show the feedback confirming DuoVideo. Likewise if someone else was TX-ing DuoVideo, the TP should reflect that as well. It took a long time and several VTC's later before I really got the programming working completely right and was actually properly using feedback from the equipment vice hard coding the feedback. If someone were to come along and ask me to show them how to control a Tandberg, my first thought would be, "I spent many hours reading Tandberg books, looking over the internet, calling Tech Support, trial and error, etc. I am not about to just give out something I worked so hard for." I would be more than willing to help, as you guys have always reached out to give me a push when I needed it. But to actually give away the keys to the kingdom, no way. Maybe I am wrong for feeling that way, but that is how I look at it.
Back to the main topic, AVstaffing, from what I have learned so far, are basically headhunters. The hiring agent I have been talking to will not tell me the name of the company that is looking for a programmer. I am assuming if I take the job, they will get a finder's fee. That being the case, I doubt I'll be able to talk to anyone from the mystery company until some sort of letter of intent is signed. Another reason why I don't feel comfortable emailing them any code samples I have written. Not to suggest in any way that they are bad guys. I am sure they are very good at what they do and probably have a very thorough screening process. In fact, we are still talking so I am still contemplating it. Especially since they told me I can do most of my work from home. I have never been through the programmer interview process before, so I didn't know what was standard to ask for and what would not be standard.
They are a head hunter group as you suggest.
My first interview didn't go so well in that they didn't really match me up with the employer.
During the interview it became obvious that they were looking for a beginning desinger/salesperson. My current job is programmer/engineer and I manage 4-5 people in our department. The interviewer held basically the same job I currently had and they were even working on smaller projects than we were already doing.
To save us both time, I ended the interview. I don't necessarily blame AV Staffing for the mismatch because the interviewer had my resume. I'm sure he must not have read it very carefully. (or at all)
So, my experience with AV Staffing was somewhat lukewarm.
If an employer asked for code from ANY specific project I have worked on, whether it was a client who owns rights to the code or code for an open source project I have taken part in, I would not oblige, and would no longer seek a relationship with this employer.
Thing is, some employers-to-be ask for code _samples,_ yet I have never heard of an interviewer asking for code snippets from exact pieces of software someone has worked on. Most of the time, if code is involved, they'll quiz you and have you write sample code for them specifically rather than request samples of previously completed projects.
(emphasis added)
This is exactly my point. Instead of helping eachother, we just tell eachother to shove off. See, if I worked hard on something like that, I'd make it my goal that people who needed the information had it. It's a bad cliche, but why reinvent the wheel? It saves time, frustration, and confusion. It's almost like AMX programmers like to see other programmers suffer - they say "hey, I have the answer, but I refuse to give it to you! Oh, I'll help you about two steps of the way, but that's it!"
This may not be you, but I've seen many posts on these forums and have had many face to face conversations about programmers afraid that if they leave code on an NI, or give code to a customer, thinking that someone will come across it, think "I have stumbled upon the best find of my lifetime," and start a hugely successful business selling only this found code to prospective clients. Look, people, real life doesn't work that way. If I have the code to a former project, I am grateful, as I don't have to rewrite and waste my time on something someone already worked on. Will I use the code somewhere else? It depends on if licensing provided with the code allows it. Likewise, with modules I write, I save others time as they don't need to rewrite something I have already spent my time on. I do know that all of my code is licensed in such a manner that it may be reused by other AMX programmers. See, I've been paid for my time. Whatever you regards to code copyright, it can't be denied that a typical AMX programmer is extremely greedy and closed with his code.
It's almost like saying "I won't give you a ride in my brand new BMW, because I've worked so hard for it, but I'll tell you how to get to the bus station." It's just mean-spirited.
I really hate to bring up the competition, but there is more than one thriving community relating to this industry that openly shares code and discussion. It has helped me immensely, and I hope my contributions to said communities have helped others. It's not like we're cookie cutter boxed software chains...
Not sure what you have against most AMX programmers, but personally I have no problem looking at other programmers' code and spending significant amounts of time trying to see if I can suggest an improvement... also I've shared code I've written on these forums numerous times even though I get nothing for doing so... but dealing with companies is a whole different matter. These days and times a company has absolutely no obligation to respect you until you are one of them. I'm sure your employer charges for design, as opposed to just doing the design for free and trying to use it to sell the system. Because what happens then is the company you're selling to will turn around, show someone else your design and say 'can you build this for less?' Same kind of thing applies towards writing code, there are more intelligent ways of assessing ability than to ask for code the applicant has written in the past, and if an employer shows no understanding of this I would think twice about continuing the interview, as eric has mentioned.
Now, actually going out on a job, taking a module I wrote to control device A, taking a module Timmy wrote to control device B, and taking a module Billy wrote to control device C, if putting all of those together will satisfy the requirements of the job, I think it would be silly and wasteful not to use each others modules. Like you said, why send a programmer to a job site and have him or her bang out code from scratch every time? That just doesn't make good business sense. Having a module library collectively made by the group and available to everyone seems to me, would be more efficient.
I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but in my experience, I have always received a push in the right direction when I ask for help. I've reverse engineered plenty of code samples given here until I understood how it worked. I have to disagree (in my experience) with the thought that "a typical AMX programmer is extremely greedy and closed with his code."