Water leak detection with AMX
maxifox
Posts: 209
From your experience what solution (and brands) you can suggest on the subject? I understand there are options: from simple sensors connected directly to AMX processor to dedicated systems interfacing with AMX. The area to be monitored is a basement with flood history in the past...
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In most our cases we just get the notifications from the Alarm System. (We install those too)
I tend to be a little shy when it comes to things like that for liability reasons. I remember we installed a very heavy trap door in a floor of 300 year old house that opened into the cellar. It was to be the client's wine cellar. They had a big saftey switch on the wall to operate it. It was the kind that you had to hold to move the actuator. The idea was that it was capable of cutting off an arm or leg due to the weight of the door. So, you had to hold the button to move the door.
The client wanted me to automate the thing. I refused saying, "I'd hate to be held responsible for chopping off your arm."
It's the same thing for me. I'd hate to get the call from the custormer asking why the AMX system didn't warn him/her of the flooded 2nd floor.
Alarm companies have insurance and personnel to handle that kind of thing. I don't.
I'll add to the clamour the alarm system is making, but not be the lone voice in the wilderness.
Having said all that... A water bug is simply a contact closure device. it's pretty simple to wire up to an IO port.
Alarm systems also make use of redundant communications (if you so choose), which means that even if the network is down, notification still occurs. Yes, you can accomplish this with 3G network backup on a good router with connection failover, but I think the alarm system is still more cost effective
If the client still wants you to handle this through the AMX system, make sure you either account for these types of issues, or make the client sign something that indicates they understand the risks. This is of course my humble opinion, but since I'm not a lawyer, you may want to run this past one to be safe
Jeff
They do?
I hear this all the time and it sounds like an excuse to me. All technology is offered on a best effort basis, that's why we have insurance.
Paul
We do this quite often. In high rise condo's I almost require it because of the potential liability to surrounding tenants and floors below. Most of our clients have multiple residences and spend extended periods of time away from each residence. This vacancy creates a potential for great harm is no one is aware of the leak. As such, we always include monitoring with it. In the high rise residences, we include the front desk as one of the first contacts in the call tree for water alarms.
We run them through the security panel, and in some cases, there is no "security" function performed by the panel. You can use it exclusivly for the water sensors. In that case, a small GE NX8 works great. One potential client actually owned several plumbing companies and he informed me about a valve shut off device that can be triggered by a contact closure. So, if you really want to be proactive, they could install that into the mix as well -- have water leak=> force leak source valve off = no more leak <IN THEORY>.
The liability issues are there, but the general feeling I get from clients is that they want a fighting chance when it comes to leak detection. Realistic expectations will help, but something is better than nothing when it comes to this. The touch panel provides a great resource for identifying where to look for the leak. I have house keepers that even go to the panel to find it when they get a call from the monitoring company.
At a minimum, it is an inexpensive system addition that has a tremendous value add for the home owner. I have had clients come back to value engineer systems, and more than one has considered water sensors to be a must keep item.
You see, I used to do alarms systems. They have far more protections and redundancies, and well, they are far, far simpler. There is less to go wrong to cause a security breach. Add remote connections, panel VPN, etc., it's just a liability disaster.
That said, a water sensor on an AMX isn't going to be any more or less reliable than one on the alarm. However, the notifications will not be as secure or reliable. How can an AMX notify you of a flooded basement? A pop up on a panel? E-mail? All well and good, but I would never make it the first line of defense. A buzzer right there in the house is far less easy to miss ... and requires no AMX master to set off. I would do the sensor if a customer insisted, but I would make good and sure I got a liability waiver signed. Most likely though, I would try to talk them into getting their security company to do it.
Well, it depends upon your liablility insurance. If you have the standard business liablility policy, it probably doesn't cover you if you're monitoring conditions at a client's home or business and are taking on the 24/7 responsibilty of notifying police/fire/ambulance for the client.
(and trust me, even if you don't think you do that, a lawyer suing for the client will be able to do so in court quite easily.)
A standard policy wouldn't typically cover that kind of thing. If you are of the impression it does, I'd highly recommend calling your insurance agent and asking the specific question, "If my client's house burns down and someone is hurt of killed and they sued me, would you pay for it and the legal fees?" I'd bet the answer is no.
Are you a lawyer?
Paul
Last I checked you're a programmer . . . might not want to pick a fight with Eric "The Wolf".
No questions from you! Shoosh!
Okay . . . enough banter & off-topic / thread hijacking from me!
There are many such paradoxes in life.
However, I think when jjames said I was a politician, he crossed a line...
:P