Best temp monitoring. Period.
wappinghigh
Posts: 12
Hi. Newbie.
Reading all the other T-Stat posts, there seems great debate on which is the easiest and best T-stat to use in an AMX setup. All the options have reports that they seem rather fiddly to integrate and unreliable. I've got a cbus set up as well and I can control all my HVAC via cbus relays. So I should be able to do the same via AMX as well. I'm very much a turn on/off and set and forget heating/cooling sort of guy. I haven't fiddled with my current manual T-stats in years.
But I would like 1/ the current room temperature broadcast onto my AMX panels and also 2/ be able to access this via the web.
So which is the best way to do these two things? Are there simple temp probes that can be incorporated into an AMX setup, or should I get the Clipsal T-stats and view their temps through AMX that way? Or, am I just better off say getting a couple of Proliphix ip 20's and using those? Is there robust AMX/Proliphix code now available?
Reading all the other T-Stat posts, there seems great debate on which is the easiest and best T-stat to use in an AMX setup. All the options have reports that they seem rather fiddly to integrate and unreliable. I've got a cbus set up as well and I can control all my HVAC via cbus relays. So I should be able to do the same via AMX as well. I'm very much a turn on/off and set and forget heating/cooling sort of guy. I haven't fiddled with my current manual T-stats in years.
But I would like 1/ the current room temperature broadcast onto my AMX panels and also 2/ be able to access this via the web.
So which is the best way to do these two things? Are there simple temp probes that can be incorporated into an AMX setup, or should I get the Clipsal T-stats and view their temps through AMX that way? Or, am I just better off say getting a couple of Proliphix ip 20's and using those? Is there robust AMX/Proliphix code now available?
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Comments
I've never found the idea of making my own T-Stat out of a bunch of relays a big deal to do. It's pretty simple logic afterall. What IS the issue, however, is that I've never found a comercial or residential HVAC contractor who will let you hook up what they perceive as a thrown-together rig like that. They typically even get a little itchy if you try to hook up some other T-Stat brand than they carry themselves.
When getting HVAC contractors to hook up AMX or Aprilaire 8870s (the exact same thing as an AMX VST) I alwasy get the song and dance about how their brand does the same thing.
So, it's more a matter of liability rather than doability.
Besides, I can put in a communciating T-Stat cheaper than a relay card anyway. I can still do all the things you mention like temperature/humidity/ heat ad cool points as well as a pretty sophisticated HVAC management program. As for fiddly-ness, I don't find them all that fiddly myself. It's just good ole string manipulation.
...and the best form of "control" and energy management is a HUMAN pushing an on/off button!!
Besides I've always found the bodies perception of "I'm too hot or too cold" to vary daily( depending on the outside temperature)- even hourly..(with what your wearing at that actual time)...particularly in my house (it's full of the fairer sex)!
This is why I have hooked things up via relays. I should be able to switch things on/off via the relays at home (once I get control of the cbus with some AMX panels) and I can switch these relays remotely through SMS.
But what I lack is a way of broadcasting the ambient room temp around my network (and therefore through onto AMX), and remotely to access off site.
This is why I'm thinking to go down the proliphix path...
So what precisely have you done?
I am curious though, what controls these relays if you have no temperature input? You know a T-stat is only a relay with a built in temp sensor so why not just talk to one instead of building you own T-Stat.
I think I'm being misunderstood! Sure, I've got Honywell and Landis & Staefer T-stats controlling central heating, and a Daikin T-stat controlling the aircon.
Of course I set a desired temp on these and let these T-stats switch the HVAC on and off to maintain the desired temp when we are at home, but I have simple on/off relay control of them on top of this via a cbus lighting/power management system.
I've got them zoned into living areas/sleeping areas. I find the day/night time logic in the T-stats ridiculously complex, so what I do is just leave them all set at the desired temp and forget about them. Then I manually switch them on/off at a central location in the house (the relay switches are all grouped there) as the need arrises. eg just before we go to bed, I switch on the sleeping area, and switch off the family area at the relay switches. When I get up I switch on the family area and turn off the sleeping relay. (My heating/cooling set up has a quick response time...reaching the setpoint within 15 min) I find this manual control better than a "computer": because a computer can never predict when I'm up or about to go asleep (in my crazy life)...show me some programming logic that can predict human behaviour! Manual control saves energy, because only YOU know at any particular time if you are comfortable enough to turn off the HVAC...a T-stat can't predict this!
When we set our alarm to go out, the panel switches off all the HVAC to save energy, and sets the relays on when we disarm and return. I can also do this in advance via SMS. But I can't take a remote temp reading of the house when I am away. I'd like some way of doing this.
I'm about to install AMX throughout the home. I should be able to control the HVAC relays via the AMX touchscreens, but I want to know the best way to get a room and zone temp readings into the AMX. I'm not actually interested in fiddling with the setpoints of the T-stats for reasons that I've explained above.
Does this explain things? Automatic Tstat logic control to maintain a desired setpoint temp when/where I actually say I need it....not when a computer tells me....
In order to be truly efficient a system has to anticipate demand needs and start to warm up or cool down prior to that need. Now depending on your heating system the amount of time needed to reach the set point can vary dramatically and in some situations set backs themselves aren't efficient and from a fuel cosumption point of view leaving the temperature at a constant may actually comsume less.
Your current configuration doesn't provide for a low set point since to decrease temperture you simply shut down or open the TT circuit with relays. I don't recall what London temperature is like during the winter time but I assume by this technique it wouldn't be cold enough to risk a freeze up or maybe it's a townhouse and the heated flats on either side above or below keep your flat from getting too cold.
For a simple stand alone T-stat in the states we tend to use the AprilAire but I do think the proliphix your mentioned could be a good solution too. They've been mentioned before here on the forum but I don't know if anyone has ever posted any first hand experience with them. I'd be very interested to hear comments from anyone that has.
I think the biggest problem you'll have with maximizing effieciency is the lack of a fixed routine since the anticipation off heating and cooling needs is a key element.
Do you have forced hot air heat or hot water radiators and how long does it take to come up to temperature?
Me too. Love to hear if these Proliphix integrate easily
Actually you're correct, my login ID was picked up from East London...where I once spent some time.
But I now live in Australia...a much more forgiving climate..more like southern California.
We have a well insulated house over here with hydronic (water radiators) for heating and heat pump aircon for cooling. The start time is real quick for both systems..around 15 min but as you point out, the warm up/ cool down time does depend on time of year. Actually to be precise, because of the laws of basic heat conduction it really depends on the outside ambient temp. Come to think of it, this is one of the clues to designing an efficient HVAC! Thanks for tip about creating setback logic on a TP. If you could get an outside temp reading into the system, some logic that turns on systems earlier if outside temp varies greater than set point room temp would be ideal!
It's my belief a human's "perception" of being "hot" or "cold" really does depend on how greater the difference is between what they experienced outside - to the temp inside (rather than the "actual" set point inside) We are much more complex than the logic of a basic TStat. Our bodies adjust by thermoregulation and we make behavioural changes like putting on/off a sweater. As an example my family feels "cold" in winter if the indoor temp falls below 23 C. In summer they would never feel cold at this temp. It's the reverse for cooling in summer vs winter. Perhaps some logic on a TP gradually moving the setpoint up/down depending on the seasons would be a start.
Actually it's also the same for jumping in the pool or spa (water temp). If someone could crack this by somehow interpreting temperature perception and then put some artificial intelligence into a T-stat set up, they could make a fortune and do the planet a real service to boot! My quest has begun!!!
If your goal is to save energy and costs, you may want to find out what's more efficient before you approach the programming and hardware side of it. If you've already done that, then I guess you're already on the right track.
--John