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DMS keypads

I want to find out how others feels about DMS keypads used with Netlinx systems. It seems designers love them (they are small and unobtrusive) but I and several of my customers actually find them horrible to use. Even in their native Landmark environment I didn't like them. I've done 10+ jobs with Netlinx and DMS keypads, and I've never felt they provide any kind of good look or feel, and a rather clunky experience in use. In order to make the space bar an "exit" key, I've developed an ugly bit of code which tracks what page I think each DMS is on, and sends it back to the next "higher" page in the menu when you push the space bar. If you're already on the top level, then the space bar toggles the lights typically. The timing in this code has to match the timeout of the DMS keypads.

I'm being asked to make a Request system navigable on DMS keypads. My experience sending variable text to these things is that it's horribly slow (you have to reselect the page again to see the new text). I have a hard time even visualizing how this would really work with the Request. Apparently there is a Landmark module but I've never had the opportunity to see that working to see what it feels like.


Just wondering if someone's done it with Netlinx and got something usable. I can write the code - I have my own very well proven module for Request, just curious on the approach.

Thanks

OP

Comments

  • shr00m-dewshr00m-dew Posts: 394
    As coming from Landmark systems, are sales guy loves the damn things.. Truth by told, if you give a customer a choice between it and any other control device. They pick the other.

    The main 'selling' feature they like is the intercom. Again, truth be told, I can't think of a customer that actually uses the intercom.. Most have cordless phone systems that are easier to handle and since we haven't had a decent way to interface a door unit since landmark, it really isn't effective.

    From my experience, most things that a residential customer uses now almost always require video interaction. DVR, PTZ cameras, CD/DVD management, DVD menus, etc all work easier looking at a TV and using the navigation pad and OK button. It's hard enough to get the DMS in-line with a TV source, much less making it comfortable to stand and control the system.

    A 6" touchscreen with video input makes the most sense. Or to keep costs down, just using a 6" video screen with a graphical OSD controlled by 8 hard buttons would work well.

    I always liked the IMS's better, but they had the same issues..

    Kevin D.
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    My main gripe with them is the same as with any other menu-based UI. I find drilling down three levels to find what I need too cumbersome. The DMS keypads only have a relatively few available buttons, so a certain amount of drilling down is mandated by the inherent limitations of the device.

    And yes, they are slow to update and cumbersome to program. I have a customer getting Escient Fireball data with them, and though the customer finds it acceptable, the lag time between refreshes is maddening to me.

    I will, without exception, push for a CV-7 instead if I have the choice.
  • sonnysonny Posts: 208
    I think a new small form-factor UI is a must in the residential market. We talk alot about eliminating fixed-purpose input devices with our clients. Why have a lighting keypad, volume control, security keypad and thermostat on one wall. CV-7's are nice but price points prevent them from being put everywhere.

    Something with a small color display with hard buttons in the $1200-$1500 range would be excellent, IMO of course.
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    Originally posted by sonny
    I think a new small form-factor UI is a must in the residential market. We talk alot about eliminating fixed-purpose input devices with our clients. Why have a lighting keypad, volume control, security keypad and thermostat on one wall. CV-7's are nice but price points prevent them from being put everywhere.

    Something with a small color display with hard buttons in the $1200-$1500 range would be excellent, IMO of course.
    I've had a fair amount of success with selling the paradigm of one or two "master" panels that could be anything from a CV-7 to a CV-12, then filling out the system with MSP-16's or -32's. At home (I have a small place, and way too much electronics in it), I have a central panel and a TXD-16 for remote operations. Generally, on, off, volume and source selections with rudimentary control is all you need in audio zones. The big control points are your theater, and maybe one in the kitchen that does it all.

    Commercial, of course, is another animal. It's either strictly utilitarian, or all flash and glamour; but should be consistent room-to-room.
  • JDaggittJDaggitt Posts: 15
    Big DMS Job

    I'm working on a job with 48 DMS keypads scattered around the house. Currently, the DMS's are being used for simple lighting control by sending commands to a Lutron Lighting System. Eventually, they will be upgraded to handle volume control of music in the room, security system control and HVAC control.

    One thing that I've found is that users really have to bend over to look at the screens even though the DMS's have been mounted fairly high on the wall. Also, when the screen times out and goes black, it is impossible to read what's on the screen.

    We've got all 48 keypads up and running. The next step will be to build menus for each room. Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether this is better done using KPDesign or reading in a command file to dynamically build the menus?
  • There is a Technote about using a large amount of DMS panels. AFAIK some adjustments in the master's Queues and Thresholds must be done.
  • I understand the desire to move into the CV-7 touchscreens, but given the price difference it may be a stretch for an "every room" solution to replace DMS in more modest projects.

    I am curious why nobody has mentioned the CP4/A touchscreen... I haven't used one personally, and this may be way off base. I would love to hear feedback from CP4/A users about the pros and cons.

    As it stands, I can see this unit as my answer to the CT-1K from C* and a useful device in my arsenal for the projects for the everyman.

    --Rick Murphy
  • shr00m-dewshr00m-dew Posts: 394
    The problem is the CP4 costs as much as the DMS retails for. Not to mention the additional wiring costs needed to make the CP4 as comparable intercom wise as the DMS's. Add in the additional charges needed to create a GUI vs a text based solution and the CP4 can be 3x as much as the DMS in the end.

    I'd love to have CP4's everywhere instead of DMS's, but $600 is a really good price point for most of our customers. $1000 would probably be the max one would spend considering most still want some form of 'remote' in the room too. A $1200-1800 touchpanel is just out of the question..

    Kevin D.
  • Chip MoodyChip Moody Posts: 727
    I have a hard time with disliking products in general, but I really can't stand the CP4. Teeny-tiny, crappy color representation, passive matrix. Ick. Just say 'no'... Rather have a B&W LCD, but they don't make those anymore.

    - Chip
  • DMS vs CP4

    Yikes Chip you hate the CP4. Well, I have one in my kitchen for my second audio zone and use it all the time for testing if I need. Yes it's only passive and all that, but at least it works as well as any other G3 panel and it doesn't have the same lame graphics limitations of the CT1000. Even in the best of circumstances I find the DMS absolutely horrible to use. The menu thing is so cumbersome.

    OP
  • DMSs- slow refresh, need to drill down menus. need to stand up and walk to wall. can't always see display. bottom price.

    CP4 - not bad. a bit laggy for volume controlling, but gets there. could do with a stylus or you have to make big buttons. more drilling down menus. walk to wall. personally, i prefer to be programming these then DMSs. no video feed.

    CV7 - more responsive, better LCD, TCP networking, video feed. better to program. walk to wall.

    MVPxxxx- same as CV7, except no video feed (do MotionJPEG, works ok cept for some lag). NO walk to wall. sit down, at your lounge, in your bed. ah, that's much better. price is the killer. and the LCD of the 7500 is pretty sad. bleeds colours a lot. 8400 is very nice, but expensive

    CV15 - very large. same as CV7 otherwise. in some ways i think it too big, unless you expect to watch video on it. watch out for placement in room to avoid glare as glare makes screen unreadable. i am trying to convince my project managers/planners that panels must be at 90 degrees to exposed windows to try to avoid this problem.

    oh, and get your techs to use a spirit level to install the wall mounted panels, not their eyes. i come across many crooked panels and it looks sad.

    all just my opinion :)
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