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NI-3100 issue with Serial ports

gdbagleygdbagley Posts: 9
in AMX Hardware
Hi everyone,

We have a NI3100, which has started to behave a bit strangely.

Basically, no RS232 devices (MPS112 and panasonic D5500 PROJ) are receiving commands. I didn't program the device and have not got access to the project files, the person who did this has now left!!
I've connected to the netlinx and managed to pull the source file and checked it out - all seems fine still.

When using the Touch panel, I see the Tx lights blink when I send a command, but the Rx never lights and the devices do not respond.

The devices are currently not networked, so the PC can currently only communicate directly with the netlinx if I disconnect the TP, so I've been unable to test the system running and monitoring it through netlinx studio.

What I have done, is (individually) connected the serial out ports to my laptop serial in, and monitored the data being sent.

When I press a button and either get the MPS or Proj to do something, I get a response in the program I'm using. However, the data doesn't match what should be being sent - its just random mess.

Any ideas what I can do? Has anyone encountered this before?

Thanks
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Comments

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    truetrue Posts: 307
    Wrong baudrate? That's usually #1 culprit. Did it work before?

    Can you send data from your notebook to the NI?

    Can you control the device by sending the string from your notebook?
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    gdbagleygdbagley Posts: 9
    Yeah, it worked before, but te proj started playing up the other week, w swap tested with another proj of same make and model - still didn't work.

    The mps (we think) was still working then. But we powered eveything off, then the mps PSU died. We replaced that PSU today, that's when we noticed the netlinx wasnt controlling that either!

    I can control the MPS with the software from the site and also send strings manually using the software I used to pick up the dodgy strings earlier.

    I'm going to try send some data
    to the NI tomorrow, didn't think to do that....let's dig my programmer course notes.
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    jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Is it an older NI-3100? Is it possible that it's yet another master with dying (dead) serial ports?

    See this thread in regards to what I'm referring to..
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    KouyaKouya Posts: 60
    I to had some Ni3000 go down, 05/06 vintage, it is the capacitors on the serial ports. A good indicator is all serials have Tx but no RX and program and IR are working.
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    Jorde_VJorde_V Posts: 393
    Kouya wrote: »
    I to had some Ni3000 go down, 05/06 vintage, it is the capacitors on the serial ports. A good indicator is all serials have Tx but no RX and program and IR are working.

    Indeed we have had it happen to about 4-5 ni3100 so far. Rest of the issue is the same and it's because of the voltage not going through correctly. (the capacitor, easy to replace yourself if you have some tech guys. But you should only do that when there's no warranty)
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    rfletcherrfletcher Posts: 217
    How random is the crud being sent out of the serial port? Is it just garbage or could it be stuff from several devices interleaved? Because another possibility is that the program is writing beyond the bounds of an array variable. I've accidentally done this twice, and a mashup of strings and commands that were sent to other devices was being sent out over some of my serial ports.
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    gdbagleygdbagley Posts: 9
    Thanks for all the I input guys. As the code was working before and I have yet to change anything, I'm going to assume it's dead.

    Pretty sure it's been in for 3 years ish, so is probs out of warranty. Is AMX aware of the problem? Surely they should extend for this type of prob?
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    jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    gdbagley wrote: »
    Thanks for all the I input guys. As the code was working before and I have yet to change anything, I'm going to assume it's dead.

    Pretty sure it's been in for 3 years ish, so is probs out of warranty. Is AMX aware of the problem? Surely they should extend for this type of prob?

    Call in and explain the situation to tech support . . . you might get lucky with the repair fees.

    As far as AMX "being aware" - I can't see why would they wouldn't be aware of it. Don't forget, we're just a VERY SMALL pinch of installers / programmers / companies here on the forum in the grand scheme. Surely there are more people reporting the same problem.
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    AuserAuser Posts: 506
    jjames wrote: »
    Call in and explain the situation to tech support . . . you might get lucky with the repair fees.

    Doubt it.

    We just sent off an NI-3000 unit from a client site for a no-charge repair as it was a bad board revision which needed an alteration done for the Ethernet port to work. It had previously been installed by another contractor with a G3 panel, hence the dead Ethernet port had never been an issue.

    After telling the client they would have a week's delay on having the room finished up completely but that the repair was at no cost, we then had to go to the client with our tail between our legs as they charged us a not-insiginificant sum to replace the dodgy capacitor while it was in! We weren't aware of any issue with the serial ports, so either the cap was marginal or replacing it is now standard procedure.
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    a_riot42a_riot42 Posts: 1,624
    It seems that cap always seems to die soon after the 3 year warranty. I'm sure its coincidental, but I am now expecting all the older 3x00s and 4x00s to have this problem soon or later.
    Paul
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    ericmedleyericmedley Posts: 4,177
    Okay, Is this cap serviceable by someone like me who's an old tweak-head and good with a soldering iron or is it one of those new fangled board caps that don't survive normal human soldering? Since the thing is out of waranty anyway, it might be serviceable by a mear human like myself.
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    AuserAuser Posts: 506
    ericmedley wrote: »
    Is this cap serviceable by someone like me who's an old tweak-head and good with a soldering iron

    Yes. Unless you've got some good surface mount rework gear you'll want as small a tip for your iron as you can find.

    Note the orientation of the black stripe on the capacitor before you start as electrolytic capacitors are polarised.

    Cut the old capacitor up to get down to the solder lands, don't try to desolder it and remove it in one piece as the leads are likely to run well back towards the middle of the cap (under the plastic base) and it is hard to get enough heat into each joint to free the lead without wrecking things. Once you've cut the old cap away and can remove the plastic base it's much easier to flick the old leads away with your iron.

    As far as soldering the new one on goes; put a SMALL amount of solder on the PCB pads, sit the new cap on top (making sure the orientation of the black stripe is correct) and press down gently on each lead with your iron to melt the solder on the pad. Job done.

    Disclaimer: I wouldn't recommend DIY repairs. AMX may have a policy about not repairing or charging extra for repairs on equipment that has been tampered with.
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    John GonzalesJohn Gonzales Posts: 609
    Lol, I'm sending all my future dead NI-3000's to Auser for repair.

    Nice write-up!

    --John
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    John GonzalesJohn Gonzales Posts: 609
    How widespread is this?

    I have an existing project in Honolulu that I have to head out to in a month and I've got an NI3100 and a 4100 out there. I don't want to be faced with a situation where these things go dead in another 12 months. Is this capacitor problem so widespread that I should proactively change out the cap?

    Just how often is this happening to everyone?
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    ColzieColzie Posts: 470
    I've had to replace/repair 4 or 5 NI-3000/4000 in the last couple of months. All installed ~4 years ago. Seems like a "when" not an "if" they go bad.

    I personally haven't had any NI-x100 with this problem. AMX could probably give you a ship date or serial number of when the issue was addressed in manufacturing.
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    John NagyJohn Nagy Posts: 1,734
    John Gonzales wrote: »
    Just how often is this happening to everyone?

    Another data point... from what I get from our dealers, we've seen what may have been this failure ONCE in about 80 still installed units of the NIx000 era. So far. A second case that might have been this was also a lightning victim, so that's not really a fair inclusion. So they aren't all dropping like flies. I have two in my own home...

    From this discussion, I'd feel it unnecessary to pull working units over a worry of failure, but prudent to have a backup processor in stock at all times.
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    annuelloannuello Posts: 294
    John Nagy wrote: »
    Another data point... from what I get from our dealers, we've seen what may have been this failure ONCE in about 80 still installed units of the NIx000 era. So far. A second case that might have been this was also a lightning victim, so that's not really a fair inclusion. So they aren't all dropping like flies. I have two in my own home...

    I've had 3 out of 10 die in the last 8 months. I'm pro-actively replacing the faulty capacitor as time/access allows, especially in uber-important venues. They have all been NI-3000 masters, not NI-3100. AMX (or perhaps just AMX Australia) have an internal document ("Repair of an NI-x000 where all serial ports have failed.pdf") which is a good guide as to how to perform the repair. Ask and you may receive...

    I had a look in an NI-3100 and the power circuitry layout has been shuffled around somewhat. It looks like the capacitor in question has been re-designated from C155 in the NI-3000 to C206 in the NI-3100. Whether the same issue still exists in the NI-3100 is yet to be seen. If it does, I don't expect we will see it for another 18 months or so (Dec 2011?).

    Another way to determine if the capacitor is as fault is that RS485 still works, but RS232 (and presumably RS422) fail. The capacitor at fault is used to generate the -10v supply for RS232 comms. The -10v is not required for RS485 mode. Of course you need some working RS485 hardware to do this test.

    As always, no warranty expressed or implied, etc. I must admit I am continually impressed at the up-time of a NetLinx master when compared to a traditional PC server. When it takes dead power supplies/capacitors to fault the system you know AMX have a good recipe going. All manufacturers have to cope with such issues - I'm sure it's not a conspiracy timed to trigger just after the warranty period expires.

    Roger McLean
    Swinburne University.
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    PhreaKPhreaK Posts: 966
    Didn't mean to start any widespread panic with that dropping like flies comment. AMX manufacture well built, reliable hardware. We've had it happen to about 5 or 6 masters, but thats out of an install base of hundreds. Once identified the fix doesn't take more than 10 minutes. If you've got any concerns give them a call.
    John Nagy wrote: »
    I'd feel it unnecessary to pull working units over a worry of failure, but prudent to have a backup processor in stock at all times.
    Solid advice.
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    TurnipTruckTurnipTruck Posts: 1,485
    Maybe the capacitors are sources from the same place as Dell computers gets them from!
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    annuelloannuello Posts: 294
    annuello wrote: »
    I had a look in an NI-3100 and the power circuitry layout has been shuffled around somewhat. It looks like the capacitor in question has been re-designated from C155 in the NI-3000 to C206 in the NI-3100. Whether the same issue still exists in the NI-3100 is yet to be seen. If it does, I don't expect we will see it for another 18 months or so (Dec 2011?).

    I've just had a new NI-3100 pass through my hands which has SMD (surface mount) LEDs recessed behind the front panel-work rather than the traditional 3mm through-hole LEDs which protrude slightly. Seeing that there was a change of hardware I couldn't resist having a peek at C206 to see if it had changed.... Yes, it has! It is now a completely different make/housing. As such, I'm guessing that the same capacitor issue will eventually appear in NI-3100 masters with 3mm through-hole LEDs, but not with the newer SMD LEDs.

    Roger McLean
    Swinburne University
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    John GonzalesJohn Gonzales Posts: 609
    Thanks guys. I'm going to bring a soldering iron just in case. This project is a 5200 mile round trip away and expensive to get to if the master goes down.

    This is also the client who's touchpanel keeps going down every time he gets to his vacation home (mentioned here), so I can't be in a "wait and see" position with him. It sounds to me like there's enough cause to warrant changing the cap proactively in this case.

    --John
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    gdbagleygdbagley Posts: 9
    Wow! This thread grew!

    Well, looks like its out of warranty, got a replacement device instead.

    So if it's that capacitor that has fried, what replacement part is needed if I was to do this myself?

    Also, lets say I messed the capacitor swap over, would IR and other ports still work?

    Cheers
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    DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    For what it's worth, I have never seen this particular problem. The only thing remotely like it has been individual or sometimes multiple RS-232 failures that could be directly attributable to lightning strikes. But that's a different animal than the thing just dying on you.
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    sridleysridley Posts: 21
    CAP issue found on 2 Units

    We have had the failing CAP issue on two units (both 3100) once the caps are replaces they are 100% again but took a bit of finding the first time! The boards are a double sided PCB so you have to have a pretty steady hand and good eye sight to solder a new one on! Still easier option than sending back to AMX for repair when out of warranty anyway.

    We will be holding some spare Caps in our tool case from now on!
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    annuelloannuello Posts: 294
    gdbagley wrote: »
    Wow! This thread grew!

    Well, looks like its out of warranty, got a replacement device instead.

    So if it's that capacitor that has fried, what replacement part is needed if I was to do this myself?

    Also, lets say I messed the capacitor swap over, would IR and other ports still work?

    Cheers

    <blatant Australian economy plug>
    RS Components http://australia.rs-online.com/web/
    RS part number: 537-0017
    </blatant Australian economy plug>
    Panasonic part: EEE1VA100SR.
    10uF 35v surface mount electrolytic.

    I believe the other ports would still work since -10v is typically used only for RS232. I can't imagine that it would be useful in the other contexts (relays, I/O, IR, etc). Perhaps you could test them prior to repair and post back here with a confirmation.

    Usual disclaimers - Don't try this on a unit under warranty. Don't try this at home, etc. I do like Auser's technique with cutting the capacitor first. I'll have to try this next time, since I've frequently lifted tracks a little in the repairs that I've done.

    Roger McLean
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    DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    DHawthorne wrote: »
    For what it's worth, I have never seen this particular problem. The only thing remotely like it has been individual or sometimes multiple RS-232 failures that could be directly attributable to lightning strikes. But that's a different animal than the thing just dying on you.

    I should have kept my mouth shut. Just ran into a 2000 that's about 3 years old, serial ports not working :( .
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    mushmush Posts: 287
    John Gonzales wrote: »
    I have an existing project in Honolulu that I have to head out to in a month and I've got an NI3100 and a 4100 out there. I don't want to be faced with a situation where these things go dead in another 12 months. Is this capacitor problem so widespread that I should proactively change out the cap?

    Just how often is this happening to everyone?

    I would take a few caps with you.
    Look at this thread.
    http://www.amxforums.com/showthread.php?7064-Problem-Controlling-Sierra-Pro-Switcher&p=48733#post48733
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    shr00m-dewshr00m-dew Posts: 394
    Hey! About to head to a job tomorrow I feel will have this problem. All the post just quite working, everything else is plucking along just fine. I doubt I'll have a source to get a cap tomorrow, luckily I think we have a spare 3000 at the store.

    Kevin D.
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    shr00m-dewshr00m-dew Posts: 394
    For those interested, it was the capacitor.

    I could not source a surface mount one in one day and I only had a NI2000 sitting at the store. Turns out a through-hole capacitor will work just fine with the pins shaped just right.

    Honestly I'm not an expert solder person, but there really wasn't anything to it.

    I did talk to tech-support today, and he said they did recognise the trend and will not charge for repairing this problem. Even if the unit is out of warranty.

    Kevin D.
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    viningvining Posts: 4,368
    I think I must be having this issue too with a brand new NI-3100. Trying to setup a new system using the iPad TPC app and wierd things just keep happening which made me think of this and/or iPad problems.

    In notifications I see my slow rolling poll that starts when I'm on page (just because): 
    Line    100 (21:27:01):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O1T]
Line    101 (21:27:02):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O1VT]
Line    102 (21:27:04):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O2T]
Line    103 (21:27:05):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O2VT]
Line    104 (21:27:07):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O3T]
Line    105 (21:27:08):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O3VT]
Line    106 (21:27:10):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O4T]
Line    107 (21:27:11):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O4VT]
Line    108 (21:27:13):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O5T]
Line    109 (21:27:14):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O5VT]
Line    110 (21:27:16):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O6T]
Line    111 (21:27:17):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O6VT]
Line    112 (21:27:19):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O7T]
Line    113 (21:27:20):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O7VT]
Line    114 (21:27:22):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O8T]
Line    115 (21:27:23):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O8VT]
Line    116 (21:27:25):: String To [5001:3:1]-[SL2O9T]
    However port 3 TX never flashes but the output light does and I get no equipment response so there is definetly something spooky going on.

    Go figure, I get this issue when trying to break in a new piece a gear with no AMX TPs installed yet to let me know it's not just a TPC issue. Of course my first inclination is to suspect the iPad and TPC which also had issues but minor in comparison.

    I'd get a cap but that's got to be about an hour in any direction. Of course with my iPad in wall I can google and then pull up a map. :)
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