I'm glad to see that panels now have similar styling, but I'm not sure it was worth waiting for a trade show to release them! It is an important step though.
As for the Network hardware, no matter how good / value this kit may be, I can't get excited as there are already offerings out there from specialist manufacturers that more than fill these markets, even this hardware from AMX is re-badged.
Announcing a NI3100 with 256Mb Memory as a new product has got to be a joke. Surely!
I think the cost of the CEDIA stand would have been better spent on R&D....
Is the resi market and pricing trends THAT hard to understand?
The new bezel for the TPs does look better, but it doesn't address the outdated touch overlay, graphics engine, or price.
The new 256MB NI-3100 is very welcomed, but making it $440 more than the standard model??? really?
I guess it's a good thing they have been putting all of the R&D/product development resources into networking gear (because god knows the WAP-250G's were awesome and we have no alternatives to get quality networking gear).
I'm glad to see that panels now have similar styling, but I'm not sure it was worth waiting for a trade show to release them! It is an important step though.
True, but I also don't think they needed to have to wait till cedia to show it. Not to mention when it will be available.
As for the Network hardware, no matter how good / value this kit may be, I can't get excited as there are already offerings out there from specialist manufacturers that more than fill these markets, even this hardware from AMX is re-badged.
Exactly, I also don't get why they're sporting N while the panels are still G.
I guess it's a good thing they have been putting all of the R&D/product development resources into networking gear (because god knows the WAP-250G's were awesome and we have no alternatives to get quality networking gear).
Oy.
Sarcasm Detector - Possible sarcasm source detected, caution is advised
RAM is expensive. Haven't you upgraded your computer recently? Even desktop RAM costs like $500 to upgrade 192 megabytes.
....
Totally, have you tried getting a CF card lately SO expensive. Especially the 256 megabytes ones, those are quite hard to get!!
(the cheapest CF cards are 2048 megabytes, then come the 64-256 megabytes and back up to 8192 megabytes)
Also do note those are actually faster than the lower memory ones. A 2GB 45MB/s CF Card costs 24,50 euro. Add an hour of work from a mechanic that still keeps it below 100 euro for the upgrade. Imho that would be a better upgrade than going to 256MB.
Exactly, I also don't get why they're sporting N while the panels are still G.
My guess is the N is there for all of the computers/devices in the house that will support it. Ruckus is the first AP that I have found to work well with AMX touch panels while still providing N to other devices. In the past, this approach would wreak havoc on the AMX panels.
CF cards != NI master RAM. It's still a rip off though.
Why they're even attempting to get into manufacturing network equipment is beyond me. If they are moving in that direction why not implement wireless N? Isn't that the whole point of new products, you know, to use current technology so that the next general of products can build on that (this seems to be something that AMX have failed badly at over the past decade or so).
I heard a leak about some of the releases they're prepping for InfoComm next year - apparently there is another redesign of the NI's. These ones are going to have racing stripes so they go faster.
This isn't a CF card. This isn't normal PC ram. It's onboard surface mount of an older style (required to fit with the existing board layout and not require a complete redesign. And it does cost a lot compared with typical ram.
This RAM is for program memory, running room, and nets about 10X the program space of the standard 64Meg 3100 after operating system and DUET. That's a godsend for some big projects.
AMX lent us a prototype of this unit over 18 months ago, and it was perfect for solving our memory crunch - with all the options and add-ons, we couldn't do more than 32 rooms and 24 panels. Need more rooms? Drop some features. Need more panels? Drop some rooms. Hard to tell a customer they can't spend more money.
At the time, we didn't have a choice. With the expanded memory, we found we could do 100 rooms and 100 panels... and every other toy. But when it looked like this improvement wouldn't see production, we changed our architecture (available in our Version 8 release) to distribute panel support to sub-master NetLinx units and still centralize all the control management in one, so we accomplished that 100/100 mark without the new unit.
We're glad to see it anyway. What they charge over a regular 3100 is less than you can buy another master for, and the simplicity of a single unit will still be a plus for many of our dealer's large systems.
CF cards != NI master RAM. It's still a rip off though.
I had someone from AMX here 3 weeks ago that said it was. I will have to take a look in my unit here to see what is the RAM then. I can't actually believe I never took a serious look at the inside (other than from the expansion slots of the 4000/4100).
I was surprised to see the new 430ish white and black bezels on 5 and 7 and 10" wall panels... because it really made a difference in appearance. They looked smaller, closer to the wall, less intrusive, more modern. I was first thinking it had to be a new line of panels in there, because to me the bezel couldn't make that much difference.
That is to say, the new bezels are more than just an artificial advance. They are an actual improvement. You may have wanted more, but this is good.
I was surprised to see the new 430ish white and black bezels on 5 and 7 and 10" wall panels... because it really made a difference in appearance. They looked smaller, closer to the wall, less intrusive, more modern. I was first thinking it had to be a new line of panels in there, because to me the bezel couldn't make that much difference.
That is to say, the new bezels are more than just an artificial advance. They are an actual improvement. You may have wanted more, but this is good.
I'm glad we can finally have a similar style of UI through out the house that is of course if you don't spec a 12, 15 or 17" which I haven't been able to do since they're also not "i" panels. I used to like the larger TPs in the kitchens but alas they can no longer be spec'd, no "i" and now they won't match anything. I still feel the glossy, shiny finish is terrible and evrything should be like Lutron's satin finish devices and plates. I also think it kinda sucks that we'll have to pay extra for the bezel since AMX didn't want to just update the TPs if for nothing else other than for this cosmetic change. It's like a bezel tax for doing business with them.
The new 256MB NI-3100 is very welcomed, but making it $440 more than the standard model??? really?
No, not really. Looking at the product page and doing the math shows it adds $225 for a silver level dealer. If you need the memory to sell a bigger job without adding more masters and convoluted programming, it's a bargain. I offered AMX $2,000 extra each for at least four jobs last year that had to have compromised numbers of panels... selling the deleted panels would have provided a tidy additional profit over that offer, and a better system for the customers. They weren't ready to build them. I offered to buy the sample they sent us for nearly any price they wanted for the one -really- big job that was just waiting to spend expansively. Nope.
At $225 more, I don't plan to ever buy a small memory unit again. I don't believe we have a customer who would not approve that increase as a hedge against future functionality blockage. Just like we never bought another 2000 or 3000 after the 21/3100 series became available. And we're mighty glad.
Remember how the 21/3100 series was more money than the 2000/3000 units until they phased out the old ones? I bet they don't produce any more 64meg units once 256 starts. Fewer inventory skews saves money and support.
I was contacted about this page that supposedly proves this discussion wrong: http://www.amx.com/products/NXA-CF2NI.asp
It does not, although it appears to.
That's where AMX shows their Flash Memory upgrade cards for NetLinx for $100 and $200 for 512meg and 1gig. The text there mistakenly says:
OVERVIEW
The NXA-CF2NI is the perfect solution when more program memory is needed in your NI-2100, NI-3100, or NI-4100 NetLinx controller. Choose from 512 MB or 1 G upgrades.
This is dead wrong. The card cannot expand PROGRAM memory at all. It increases storage only. If it did what it says, there would be no need for the new upgraded memory unit.
It does NOT do what the page says. AMX should correct this as it is causing confusion.
I think the cost of the CEDIA stand would have been better spent on R&D....
The point of presence at CEDIA is to see and be seen by dealers. That was accomplished. AMX targeted a specific group of dealers for conversion to AMX, and what we hear is that they succeeded beyond their expectation. Most of the recruits are experienced high volume dealers who are unhappy with their current vendor who shall remain nameless (C*).
Which reminds me of the old saying, no matter how good she looks, somebody somewhere is fed up with her and not going to take it anymore...
Repeatedly throughout the show, AMX reps walked new dealers across the isle to the CineTouch booth to show them our alternative to custom programming. Some of them will use us to jump start their new AMX trade. Whether they go back to custom programming once/if they go to all the AMX training will be up to them.
Don't suppose that AMX comes to CEDIA specifically to show new products. They show new products at shows to get the traffic they need to approach new business. Having a batch of new stuff, no matter how dramatic or mundane, helps. No amount of R&D can get the face time that coming to CEDIA does...
The point of presence at CEDIA is to see and be seen by dealers.....No amount of R&D can get the face time that coming to CEDIA does...
All the meanwhile when someone who looks at C*'s iPad clam-shell / dock and does all the math - the choice is simple with iPad stuff: Go with C-tron over AMX. Or - look at that, a two-way WIFI hand-held remote, something AMX has yet to achieve. What does AMX come out with? Stupid bezels, re-branded network stuff, more memory and an upgrade to the "architecture" of the processor (aka firmware update.) I mean SERIOUSLY! Nothing like putting the weight on the dealers to try and fluff AMX's status to more than what it really is.
I'm ready to start programming for a company that actually is innovative and not following in people's tracks, such as, oh I dunno C-tron. To say I'm royally pissed with AMX for being stupid in their R&D department is an understatement.
No matter how much lipstick you put on this, it's still pretty ugly. AMX hasn't done anything innovative in the resi market for . . . YEARS! I suspect they'd rather go down holding their noses high up in the air rather than actually doing anything beneficial to the resi dealer base and allow them to provide innovative and awesome products. I wonder when they'll realize the wave they've been riding since 1988 is LOOOOONG over.
AMX targeted a specific group of dealers for conversion to AMX, and what we hear is that they succeeded beyond their expectation. Most of the recruits are experienced high volume dealers who are unhappy with their current vendor who shall remain nameless (C*).
There's also quite alot of folks that are unhappy with AMX so C restron and Savant maybe saying the same things about the qauntity of current AMX dealers they're recruiting. I would actually think they would have the advantage since to be an AMXer means a higher level of committment to training and developing programming skills that consume a vast amount of valuable time and financial resources. And those big experienced, high volume dealers are the ones who likely play both sides of the fence with no loyalty to anyone other than their bottom line.
Might be the drink talking! The outlook is always rosier when you're a little buzzed and the AMX sales guys, well sales guys are sales guys. BS is in their nature and theirs usually a bottle in their hand.
The grass may be greener, but you still have to cut it
Through meetings at the AMX booth, I am inclined to think that they are on the verge of something great for the Resi market. On one hand, we tell them to avoid announcing/releasing products if they are not ready to ship. On another, we yell at them for not releasing new products. I have heard the promise of new products for a while now and I was also disappointed that I did not see anything. At this point, I think the playing field is fairly even. I could easily argue in favor of C-tron, Savant, C4, AMX, or even Elan G!... I could also argue against them just as easily. (at least the ones I am somewhat familiar with ) At the end of the day, the deciding factor is the dealer that is designing, installing, and supporting the product that makes the product successful. Sure, there are a couple of lines that make it easier to get that initial contact with a new customer, but at the end of the day, you are still competing with the other dealers that sell that brand. Also, a couple of shiny features to get the initial attention of a new client can easily be erased with unreliable gear, inability to perform desired functions, over budget installs, or even delayed installs.
Obviously, no company has been immune to at least one of these problems. At the end of the day, you have to focus on selling your company, not products if you want to be successful. You also have to align yourself with companies that support you and allow you to do business your way. There is no magic bullet. There is no universally correct answer to which brand is best. There is an answer to which brand is best for me and my company... and it is the job of the companies leaders to find the answer to this question and make sure that it remains the correct answer.
I still feel the glossy, shiny finish is terrible and evrything should be like Lutron's satin finish devices and plates.
As AMX are marketing this as the Mystique Style, I would guess that before long there will be a range of styles to compliment different interior designs. Much the same as Lutron and Dynalite do (& every other keypad I can think of).
It's our job to cut it, but no one wants to watch it grow...
The idea of sitting on the back porch after a easy 8 hour day, day after day with an ice cold six pack watching the grass grow sounds lik a geat way to spend the evenings to me! Ahhh, I can barely remember having that kind of leisure time available to do nothing but relax.
relax....That's that time period of about 30 seconds after you finish getting everything on a job online, programmed, and tested. It is abruptly ended by the realization that the client or your boss are on the way to find all of the problems you missed
jjames
Posts: 2,908
Comments
As for the Network hardware, no matter how good / value this kit may be, I can't get excited as there are already offerings out there from specialist manufacturers that more than fill these markets, even this hardware from AMX is re-badged.
Announcing a NI3100 with 256Mb Memory as a new product has got to be a joke. Surely!
I think the cost of the CEDIA stand would have been better spent on R&D....
We're all ready using Ruckus stuff and love it, but we stick with the BG line and would hardly need the licensing for 32 AP's...
Kevin D.
Is the resi market and pricing trends THAT hard to understand?
The new bezel for the TPs does look better, but it doesn't address the outdated touch overlay, graphics engine, or price.
The new 256MB NI-3100 is very welcomed, but making it $440 more than the standard model??? really?
I guess it's a good thing they have been putting all of the R&D/product development resources into networking gear (because god knows the WAP-250G's were awesome and we have no alternatives to get quality networking gear).
Oy.
....
My face, you made me hit it. The facepalm hurt
True, but I also don't think they needed to have to wait till cedia to show it. Not to mention when it will be available.
Exactly, I also don't get why they're sporting N while the panels are still G.
Don't you know how hard it is to replace that CF card?! :P
Honestly they need to reconsider their R&D, because I don't get what they are doing over there.
According to the product pages, no. I also find it strange that the 9000 doesn't sport it even though it's a product that isn't even released yet.
Sarcasm Detector - Possible sarcasm source detected, caution is advised
Totally, have you tried getting a CF card lately SO expensive. Especially the 256 megabytes ones, those are quite hard to get!!
(the cheapest CF cards are 2048 megabytes, then come the 64-256 megabytes and back up to 8192 megabytes)
Also do note those are actually faster than the lower memory ones. A 2GB 45MB/s CF Card costs 24,50 euro. Add an hour of work from a mechanic that still keeps it below 100 euro for the upgrade. Imho that would be a better upgrade than going to 256MB.
My guess is the N is there for all of the computers/devices in the house that will support it. Ruckus is the first AP that I have found to work well with AMX touch panels while still providing N to other devices. In the past, this approach would wreak havoc on the AMX panels.
Jeff
Why they're even attempting to get into manufacturing network equipment is beyond me. If they are moving in that direction why not implement wireless N? Isn't that the whole point of new products, you know, to use current technology so that the next general of products can build on that (this seems to be something that AMX have failed badly at over the past decade or so).
I heard a leak about some of the releases they're prepping for InfoComm next year - apparently there is another redesign of the NI's. These ones are going to have racing stripes so they go faster.
This isn't a CF card. This isn't normal PC ram. It's onboard surface mount of an older style (required to fit with the existing board layout and not require a complete redesign. And it does cost a lot compared with typical ram.
This RAM is for program memory, running room, and nets about 10X the program space of the standard 64Meg 3100 after operating system and DUET. That's a godsend for some big projects.
AMX lent us a prototype of this unit over 18 months ago, and it was perfect for solving our memory crunch - with all the options and add-ons, we couldn't do more than 32 rooms and 24 panels. Need more rooms? Drop some features. Need more panels? Drop some rooms. Hard to tell a customer they can't spend more money.
At the time, we didn't have a choice. With the expanded memory, we found we could do 100 rooms and 100 panels... and every other toy. But when it looked like this improvement wouldn't see production, we changed our architecture (available in our Version 8 release) to distribute panel support to sub-master NetLinx units and still centralize all the control management in one, so we accomplished that 100/100 mark without the new unit.
We're glad to see it anyway. What they charge over a regular 3100 is less than you can buy another master for, and the simplicity of a single unit will still be a plus for many of our dealer's large systems.
I had someone from AMX here 3 weeks ago that said it was. I will have to take a look in my unit here to see what is the RAM then. I can't actually believe I never took a serious look at the inside (other than from the expansion slots of the 4000/4100).
I was surprised to see the new 430ish white and black bezels on 5 and 7 and 10" wall panels... because it really made a difference in appearance. They looked smaller, closer to the wall, less intrusive, more modern. I was first thinking it had to be a new line of panels in there, because to me the bezel couldn't make that much difference.
That is to say, the new bezels are more than just an artificial advance. They are an actual improvement. You may have wanted more, but this is good.
I'm glad we can finally have a similar style of UI through out the house that is of course if you don't spec a 12, 15 or 17" which I haven't been able to do since they're also not "i" panels. I used to like the larger TPs in the kitchens but alas they can no longer be spec'd, no "i" and now they won't match anything. I still feel the glossy, shiny finish is terrible and evrything should be like Lutron's satin finish devices and plates. I also think it kinda sucks that we'll have to pay extra for the bezel since AMX didn't want to just update the TPs if for nothing else other than for this cosmetic change. It's like a bezel tax for doing business with them.
No, not really. Looking at the product page and doing the math shows it adds $225 for a silver level dealer. If you need the memory to sell a bigger job without adding more masters and convoluted programming, it's a bargain. I offered AMX $2,000 extra each for at least four jobs last year that had to have compromised numbers of panels... selling the deleted panels would have provided a tidy additional profit over that offer, and a better system for the customers. They weren't ready to build them. I offered to buy the sample they sent us for nearly any price they wanted for the one -really- big job that was just waiting to spend expansively. Nope.
At $225 more, I don't plan to ever buy a small memory unit again. I don't believe we have a customer who would not approve that increase as a hedge against future functionality blockage. Just like we never bought another 2000 or 3000 after the 21/3100 series became available. And we're mighty glad.
Remember how the 21/3100 series was more money than the 2000/3000 units until they phased out the old ones? I bet they don't produce any more 64meg units once 256 starts. Fewer inventory skews saves money and support.
http://www.amx.com/products/NXA-CF2NI.asp
It does not, although it appears to.
That's where AMX shows their Flash Memory upgrade cards for NetLinx for $100 and $200 for 512meg and 1gig. The text there mistakenly says:
OVERVIEW
The NXA-CF2NI is the perfect solution when more program memory is needed in your NI-2100, NI-3100, or NI-4100 NetLinx controller. Choose from 512 MB or 1 G upgrades.
This is dead wrong. The card cannot expand PROGRAM memory at all. It increases storage only. If it did what it says, there would be no need for the new upgraded memory unit.
It does NOT do what the page says. AMX should correct this as it is causing confusion.
The point of presence at CEDIA is to see and be seen by dealers. That was accomplished. AMX targeted a specific group of dealers for conversion to AMX, and what we hear is that they succeeded beyond their expectation. Most of the recruits are experienced high volume dealers who are unhappy with their current vendor who shall remain nameless (C*).
Which reminds me of the old saying, no matter how good she looks, somebody somewhere is fed up with her and not going to take it anymore...
Repeatedly throughout the show, AMX reps walked new dealers across the isle to the CineTouch booth to show them our alternative to custom programming. Some of them will use us to jump start their new AMX trade. Whether they go back to custom programming once/if they go to all the AMX training will be up to them.
Don't suppose that AMX comes to CEDIA specifically to show new products. They show new products at shows to get the traffic they need to approach new business. Having a batch of new stuff, no matter how dramatic or mundane, helps. No amount of R&D can get the face time that coming to CEDIA does...
I'm ready to start programming for a company that actually is innovative and not following in people's tracks, such as, oh I dunno C-tron. To say I'm royally pissed with AMX for being stupid in their R&D department is an understatement.
No matter how much lipstick you put on this, it's still pretty ugly. AMX hasn't done anything innovative in the resi market for . . . YEARS! I suspect they'd rather go down holding their noses high up in the air rather than actually doing anything beneficial to the resi dealer base and allow them to provide innovative and awesome products. I wonder when they'll realize the wave they've been riding since 1988 is LOOOOONG over.
Might be the drink talking! The outlook is always rosier when you're a little buzzed and the AMX sales guys, well sales guys are sales guys. BS is in their nature and theirs usually a bottle in their hand.
And the grass is always greener from a distance.
The grass may be greener, but you still have to cut it
Through meetings at the AMX booth, I am inclined to think that they are on the verge of something great for the Resi market. On one hand, we tell them to avoid announcing/releasing products if they are not ready to ship. On another, we yell at them for not releasing new products. I have heard the promise of new products for a while now and I was also disappointed that I did not see anything. At this point, I think the playing field is fairly even. I could easily argue in favor of C-tron, Savant, C4, AMX, or even Elan G!... I could also argue against them just as easily. (at least the ones I am somewhat familiar with
Obviously, no company has been immune to at least one of these problems. At the end of the day, you have to focus on selling your company, not products if you want to be successful. You also have to align yourself with companies that support you and allow you to do business your way. There is no magic bullet. There is no universally correct answer to which brand is best. There is an answer to which brand is best for me and my company... and it is the job of the companies leaders to find the answer to this question and make sure that it remains the correct answer.
Just my opinions
Jeff
It's our job to cut it, but no one wants to watch it grow...
As AMX are marketing this as the Mystique Style, I would guess that before long there will be a range of styles to compliment different interior designs. Much the same as Lutron and Dynalite do (& every other keypad I can think of).
End of Tradeshow = reset optimism for next opportunity :-)
Jeff