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Visual Architect

I'm going to you from the land of CEDIA and since I'm bored, I decided to spark a little discussion of the new programming interface from AMX. Here's a link for those not yet familiar: http://amx.com/va/ I saw the presentation and it looks like it has some pontential, especially for those smaller jobs. I'm still skeptical and I will obviously hold on judgement until I get the actual product in hand to test, but I'm wondering what everyone else is thinking.


Jeff

Comments

  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    It looks to me like a union of Design Express and Panel Designer. If so, I can't see myself migrating to it; automated code generators always add a ton of overhead to the design that is a nightmare to service and modify (ever look at a Microsoft Office program output to HTML format?). It also locks you into whatever design paradigns form the basis of the generation. For me it's more efficient to start from scratch than to generate a project, figure out what the heck it did, and then modify it to suit my own application.

    It seems to be intended to make AMX products more accessible to non-programmers, which is fine as a marketing tool, but of no real use to those who are already adept at programming (and I might add, managing their code).

    I've never cared for this line of development. It's too reminiscient of Lankmark and ********. I picked up on Axcess and NetLinx specifically because they are code-based and more powerful in terms of what I can get them to do and how I can modify them. It's always a compromise when you try to dumb something down to make it more accessible to non-experts. I'm ok with them doing this as long as they don't mess with my ability to dabble directly with the code myself - but if they ever think to replace Studio with this kind of beast, I may take up plumbing.
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    DHawthorne wrote:
    I'm ok with them doing this as long as they don't mess with my ability to dabble directly with the code myself - but if they ever think to replace Studio with this kind of beast, I may take up plumbing.

    Dave,

    Sounds like the same reaction I had at first. After talking with some of the AMX employees at CEDIA, I am more at ease. In my opinion, I don't think they want to replace the ability for programmers to code, they just want to make the product line more appealing to businesses that employee great AV people, but not necessarily great programmers. I also think that after seeing some overviews and talking with some of the engineers, that this will be a viable solution for me to quickly develop smaller jobs (jobs with single room control) so that we can offer AMX to more jobs without requiring more programmers. The reason I think that this may work better than design express is because I got the idea that being a programmer, I could tweak the way code is generated.
    There are also a couple of very nice features that I am looking forward to. The DDDP (dynamic discovery) is a great concept and if it works half as well as anticipated, it will make my life easier. The other feature would be the automated documentation. From what I understand, VA will generate a wire connection diagram (and other stuff) that I can hand to my installers.

    I might be getting my hopes up only to have them dragged through the mud, but based on what I saw at CEDIA, I am very hopeful. It seems like AMX has been paying attention to the requests of dealers and forum users as I know I have seen multiple requests for IREdit to be integrated with studio. I have seen multiple requests for keypads that are on the ethernet as opposed to axlink, and the new DMS keypads are a good start (great backend technology, but the user interface needs a little polishing). I suppose what I am trying to say is that I see AMX backing up talk with action and it makes me hopeful.

    </Optimism>
    </Sucking up to AMX>


    Jeff

    P.S.
    When I was first introduced to the Visual Architect, I was told that it was drag and drop programming. (I am not sure, but I think I stopped myself from laughing out loud) So I had a very large bias against VA from the start and I have since decided that it is an idea with great potential.

    P.P.S.

    Sorry for the long post, I would have initially posted these opinions, but the hotel I was staying at did not have highspeed internet in the room, only in the lobby and only with a wire. Needless to say it wasn't very convenient nor condusive to my long winded and highly opinionated posts ;)
  • I agree with Jeff on a couple of points: documentation and small systems to get started. Mods & "glue code" are supposed to be able to be done after the fact in a much better way than DXP. I specifically asked if there was a custom.axi (that only it could be modified) and the answer seemed to be no. So I am hopeful that all of the generated code is modifiable and re-usable.

    They were very clear that, like DXP, once modified, you can't send it back to VA.

    Bill Ravenel
  • DHawthorne wrote:
    I've never cared for this line of development. It's too reminiscient of Lankmark and ********.

    Were you referring to Cre$tron? I've never seen Landmark, but Cre$tron is just as flexible as AMX, and while there may be automatic, magical, miracle code generators for it, you've got the same option as you do with AMX - just say "no"!

    - Chip
  • The difference is that the primary programming environment for C******* relies foremost on a drag and drop interface. Ofcourse you can write your own Simpl+ code but it's poorly documented and technical support is the worst i have even seen. (in the netherlands anyway). ("what? you programmed your own Simpl+ module? sorry, we don't support that")

    It's probably a matter of taste anyway, programming wise.

    On the other hand, AMX cannot compete with some of their small room control packages in terms of value for money.

    Anyway, back on topic; VA sounds to me like a lot of marketing Blah so far. I am not in favour of any kind of automated code generating in the first place. But in keeping an open mind ; i'm definately going to try it out when it's available.
  • I'm not going to get myself in trouble again by comparing AMX to others but I am not a big fan of drag and drop programming. I find that you are often at the mercy of the designers and their 'text book' approach to how things must be done. There is no or very little chance to change or modify anything if the client so wishes. I also understand that such programs are needed for smaller dealers that don't have their own programmers on the payroll. Bottom line is that as long as Studio exist we all have jobs.
  • VisualArchitect is supa-dupa cool

    The goal of VA wasn't to replace programming via code, simply to make the simple jobs that are mainly device control with "simple Macroization" or what I refer to as personalization easier. I think if everyone gives it an open minded look you will find that it can greatly help on those single master jobs. One of items that was extremely important to the development team was that ANY button event (Push, Release, Hold) can be modified within the VA structure, so hopefully you would have no need to modify code, if your end-user wants to modify the functionallity you can do it within VA. Thats not to say you won't be able to modify the code, but why go through that if it is so easy? I'm not saying it has all the answers, but I think you will be impressed. If you take a couple minutes and watch the demo I think you'll see its not meant to do all the work for you just all the monotonous jibba-jabba that really isn't any fun, that way you can focus on the cool Automation that seems to get overlooked these days.

    http://www.amx.com/va/

    Watch the demo and let me know your questions/comments.
  • Joe HebertJoe Hebert Posts: 2,159
    <long winded post>
    I started my career in integration in 1984 for a company called Rich Inc. Rich Inc. was the company that revolutionized computerized stock market trading and was eventually bought out by Reuters. I was fortunate enough to get a position with Rich as an electronic technician just before the company shot through the roof.

    Anyhow my job at the time entailed wire-wrapping and soldering components on prototype boards to build interfaces that were used in our system. Wire-wrapping these interfaces was a tedious and time consuming job and since the company was growing exponentially it also meant we were able to work as much overtime as we could stand and the money was good. Life was good.

    Those of us that were making a living by wire-wrapping and building these interfaces were upset when we heard the news that Rich had hired a PC board designer. In our minds he was an unwelcome addition to the company. An interface that might take a week to build (not including the testing time) could now be built in less than a day with PC boards. Myself and others were afraid we were going to lose our jobs.

    I didn?t buy the company angle that these PC boards were imperative if the company was going to keep up with the growing demands for our systems. What do I care about the company growing if it means my value is going to diminish? I didn?t look at the big picture. I was more concerned about what was in it for me. I was worried about my future.

    Well as most things do, everything turned out fine in the long run, actually better than I ever expected. I was put in charge of the sub-assembly department and instead of spending my time building the same interfaces over and over I moved on to testing the interfaces and eventually designing and building test jigs and writing programs to test the hardware. I gained a wealth of valuable experience (and a greater sense of accomplishment) as the company moved forward with streamlining the process. The doors eventually closed and I lost my job when Reuters shut us down but in my mind it just meant it was time to move on and find another door to walk through.

    Fast forwarding to CEDIA this year, I was at the ACE reception when I heard from a friend in the know that AMX was introducing something this year that was going to put me out of a job as an independent programmer. I?m sure it was said tongue in cheek but I couldn?t help but flash back 20 years and smile.

    Friday morning when the CEDIA trade floor opened I went directly to the AMX booth and watched the demonstration for Visual Architect. Conceptually it has some promising aspects but I really don?t think we?ll have to worry about losing our jobs or value as programmers. I?d have to try it first hand to decide if I?ll ever use it but if it takes some of the monotony away and if I still have access to making changes myself (without wading through reams of code) then I will give it a fair chance. I have no idea if VA bird is going to get up and fly but if it makes AMX stronger then I?m all for it.

    I firmly believe that we haven?t even scratched the surface in the home automation market. There is so much more we can do with bringing content to the home with the AMX platform. If VA brings more users into the fold then I think it?s a win win for all of us.
    </long winded post>
  • Well put Joe. I agree that the home market has so much space to grow and there's no way that the programmers now could handle the possible load. As I had stated before I personally am not a big fan of drag and drop(too many let downs in the past) but I do see VA as good for small companies starting up or ones that have been around in the AV field for some time and is just starting to enter into the automation side of things. I am also pretty sure of having a job for a least a few more years in this field until I decide its time to leave and take up basket weaving.(not meant as an insult to basket weavers unless you have seen my baskets and then its a disgrace)
  • The difference is that the primary programming environment for C******* relies foremost on a drag and drop interface.

    They have a drag and drop code generator - called System Builder - but it is not by ANY means their "primary programming environment".

    Sorry to hear about crappy support out in your neck of the woods - that's a bummer.

    - Chip
  • You would not consider Simpl Windows to be a drag and drop interface? That's odd.
  • You would not consider Simpl Windows to be a drag and drop interface? That's odd.

    Nope. Not in any way shape or form - at least not in the sense that most consider "drag and drop". It's not like you grab a symbol, drop it into your project, cick a button and it writes code for you. Yes, you drag and drop symbols into your project, but then YOU need to figure out how to connect the signals from one symbol to another in a way that gets logic flowing the way you want it to.

    - Chip
  • By using that same logic, a person using VA wouldn not be required to have any knowledge of how to connect symbols/blocks/whatever or any working knowledge of AMX altogether.

    Of course you are supposed to know something about WHAT you are dragging and dropping. C****** or AMX....., same difference
  • I wouldn't say VisualArchitect is entirely Drag n' Drop (most of it is), but it will be quite a bit easier (in my opinion) to use than simple windows. It works more like most people think, in regard to the Macro-fication aspect of the system. C******* (again in my opinion) took the circuit layout model and extended it to far.

    VisualArchitect's CodeBuilder does a couple things that make it very easy:

    1- gives you a list/tree of all events that can be Macro-fied
    2- gives you a list of all functions that can be executed in the system, as well as what you can get status of
    3- presents all of this in a super-easy to use interface that is drag n' drop, but more than that it makes it very easy to look at and see what it is doing, which makes it easier to modify.

    Don't think just because its drag n' drop it won't have dones of power, It just makes all that power easier to wield.
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    The more I hear about this, the more I want to use it! I can't wait the couple months. (I just hope my expectations don't get to out of whack)

    I just hope they release a beta version in the next couple weeks that is available only to say ACE certified programmers ;)

    Jeff
  • Make sure you watch the demo video found at http://www.amx.com/va/
  • I agree with Jeff - actually, full ACE certified population would be a pretty good beta distribution for everything. Moderators, any comments?

    Bill R.
  • That would be cool to beta test something new. The last thing I beta tested were TI filters. Software is so much more unpredictable that it would be nice to give input on possible changes or suggestions.
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