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New Firmware - clock manager

Glad to see the new firmware includes a clock manager.

I already use i!Schedule in the system, how can I turn off the time syncronisation in i!Schedule?

Comments

  • Options
    yuriyuri Posts: 861
    clock manager for what?
  • Options
    hodeyphodeyp Posts: 104
    the new firmware has ntp built directly into the netlinx master instead of having to rely on i!Schedule
  • Options
    Joe HebertJoe Hebert Posts: 2,159
    I?ve been playing with the new DUET v3.21.343 firmware also and I like the added features for DST and time syncing along with the new look web interface but I?m confused by the options we have for DST rules. How do I say first <insert day> of the month and last <insert day> of the month?

    You get a choice of week of the month (1-5) and day of the week. Do I pick week 5 if I want to state last Sunday of the month? Will it still work if there isn?t 5 weeks in the month? And do I pick week 1 if I want to say first Sunday of the month? Will it still work if the month begins on Monday?

    The week of the month choice doesn?t make much sense, at least to me. Don?t we really need first <insert day> of the month, second <insert day> month, etc., along with last <insert day> of the month?

    Thanks.
  • Options
    Web pages

    I was wondering how long it normally takes for a NetLinx web page to load. It seems slow to me. What is your duet memory setting?

    What happened to the system message log that was featured in non-duet firmware?
  • Options
    Joe HebertJoe Hebert Posts: 2,159
    B_Clements wrote:
    I was wondering how long it normally takes for a NetLinx web page to load. It seems slow to me. What is your duet memory setting?
    I?m having issues with the web interface speed also. This is what Netlinx reports on my test NI-700:
    Blank program:
    Welcome to NetLinx v3.21.343 Copyright AMX Corp. 1999-2006
    > show mem
    Volatile Free   :  8902568 (largest free block in bytes)
    NonVolatile Free:   518440 (bytes free)
    Disk Free       :  5111808 (bytes of free space)
    Duet Memory Free :   960364 (bytes)
     Partition 1 -    960364 (bytes)
     Partition 2 - <UNKNOWN>
    >
    
    Small program (32K .tkn)
    Welcome to NetLinx v3.21.343 Copyright AMX Corp. 1999-2006
    > show mem
    Volatile Free   :  7875152 (largest free block in bytes)
    NonVolatile Free:   518440 (bytes free)
    Disk Free       :  5091328 (bytes of free space)
    Duet Memory Free :  2470328 (bytes)
     Partition 1 -   1048576 (bytes)
     Partition 2 -   1421752 (bytes)
    >
    
    Larger program (845k .tkn no DUET modules)
    Welcome to NetLinx v3.21.343 Copyright AMX Corp. 1999-2006
    > show mem
    Volatile Free   :  2439008 (largest free block in bytes)
    NonVolatile Free:   344016 (bytes free)
    Disk Free       :  4253696 (bytes of free space)
    Duet Memory Free :  3435496 (bytes)
     Partition 1 -   1027540 (bytes)
     Partition 2 -   2407956 (bytes)
    >
    

    When I have a blank program or small program the web interface seems ok (maybe a few seconds per page) With a larger program the web interface is pretty much unusable as it takes about 30 seconds to go from page to page and while it?s doing that my CPU gets pegged at 100% and my browser hangs.

    I don?t know if anyone else had any problems upgrading from 3.14.227 to 3.21.343 but when I did the web service didn?t even start because the log file showed errors after the reboot while trying to open some files (lines 15,39,51,76, and 77):
    Message Log for System 10 Version: v3.21.343
    Entry        Date/Time       Object
         Text
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
      1: 11-01-2006 WED 01:30:12 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 10136:1:10
      2: 11-01-2006 WED 01:30:12 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11312600 <54072>
      3: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:59 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11366672 <70360>
      4: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:59 TelnetSvr             
         Accepted Telnet connection:socket=21 addr=192.168.1.201 port=1618
      5: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:24 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 5001:5:10
      6: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:24 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 5001:4:10
      7: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:24 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 5001:3:10
      8: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:24 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 5001:2:10
      9: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:24 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 5001:1:10
     10: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:22 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11437032 <32816>
     11: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:17 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11469848 <15776>
     12: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:15 Interpreter           
         CIpEvent::OnLine 0:1:10
     13: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:15 Interpreter           
         CIpInterpreter::Run - Execute Startup Code
     14: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11485624 <17984>
     15: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         Oscar: Error starting file:/lib/morpheus.jar
     16: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at sun.misc.CVM.runMain(Unknown Source)
     17: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
     18: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Main.main(Unknown Source)
     19: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     20: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     21: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.initialize(Unknown Source)
     22: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.setStartLevel(Unknown Source)
     23: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.setStartLevelInternal(Unknown Source)
     24: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.startBundleWithStartLevel(Unknown Source)
     25: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.resolveBundle(Unknown Source)
     26: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:12 Unknown               
         org.osgi.framework.BundleException: Unresolved package: org.osgi.service.ht
    tp; specification-version="0.0.0"
     27: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11503608 <218344>
     28: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at sun.misc.CVM.runMain(Unknown Source)
     29: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
     30: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Main.main(Unknown Source)
     31: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     32: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     33: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.initialize(Unknown Source)
     34: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.processAutoProperties(Unknown Source)
     35: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.installBundle(Unknown Source)
     36: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.installBundle(Unknown Source)
     37: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         org.osgi.framework.BundleException: Unable to cache bundle.
     38: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         Oscar: Auto-properties start.
     39: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         DefaultBundleArchive:error in initialize error in opening zip file
     40: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at sun.misc.CVM.runMain(Unknown Source)
     41: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
     42: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Main.main(Unknown Source)
     43: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     44: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.<init>(Unknown Source)
     45: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.initialize(Unknown Source)
     46: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.processAutoProperties(Unknown Source)
     47: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.installBundle(Unknown Source)
     48: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         	at org.ungoverned.oscar.Oscar.installBundle(Unknown Source)
     49: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         org.osgi.framework.BundleException: Unable to cache bundle.
     50: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         Oscar: Auto-properties install.
     51: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:11 Unknown               
         DefaultBundleArchive:error in initialize error in opening zip file
     52: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:10 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11721952 <131968>
     53: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:09 Unknown               
         =================
     54: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:09 Unknown               
         Welcome to Duet.
     55: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:09 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11853920 <14592>
     56: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:09 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11868512 <21200>
     57: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:09 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11889712 <19008>
     58: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:08 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 11908720 <6560872>
     59: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.Thread
    
     60: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001950) Preparing to initialize java.lang.Thread
     61: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary
    
     62: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001949) Preparing to initialize java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary
     63: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.ClassLoader
    
     64: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001948) Preparing to initialize java.lang.ClassLoader
     65: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.Shutdown
    
     66: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001947) Preparing to initialize java.lang.Shutdown
     67: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize sun.misc.ThreadRegistry
    
     68: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001946) Preparing to initialize sun.misc.ThreadRegistry
     69: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.String
    
     70: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001944) Preparing to initialize java.lang.String
     71: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.Float
    
     72: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001943) Preparing to initialize java.lang.Float
     73: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 InternalMessageRouter 
         Preparing to initialize java.lang.Class
    
     74: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         (0000001940) Preparing to initialize java.lang.Class
     75: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Unknown               
         JVM Logger Thread Started
     76: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 ConfigurationManager  
         Error extracting Morpheus files
     77: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 ConfigurationManager  
         CFSFile::ExtractFileData Write ERROR 38001d
     78: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 ConfigurationManager  
         Extracting Morpheus files
     79: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Load - NV Ram Used  4808
     80: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Load - NV Ram Total 523248
     81: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Load Good  Incoming was 34% of Actual Size 20KB
     82: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadModuleInfo                        20    0
     83: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpBreak::LoadBreakPointInfo                    422    9
     84: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadStackParaInfo                    322    7
     85: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadGlobalLocalInfo                 5744  125
     86: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadFunctionInfo                      42    1
     87: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadStructureInfo                   1110   10
     88: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpSymbol::LoadFileInfo                          70    1
     89: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpTempMan::LoadTemplate                       8546    1
     90: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpDeviceList::LoadDeviceList                     6    1
     91: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpCodeMan::LoadTable                             6    1
     92: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpListMan::LoadVolatile                       3228    1
     93: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpCodeMan::LoadCode                            590    1
     94: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Module Header
     95: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Project Name=blank
     96: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Root
     97: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpUffHandler::Load - Begin...doc:PROG.TKN
     98: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpNvMemory::NvInitalize NvRam Tested OK  Used=4808  Available=518440
     99: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 Interpreter           
         CIpInterpreter::Run - Unlocking Interpreter Mutex Early (Device Hold off is
     off)
    100: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:07 ConnectionManager     
         Memory Available = 18417232
    101: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         JVMStartParam(2): -Djava.security.manager -Doscar.profile.name=Duet org.ung
    overned.oscar.Main
    102: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         JVMStartParam(1): v1.1 runJava -XsafeExit -Xms4M -Dpath.separator=; -Djava.
    class.path=doc:/lib;doc:/lib/Oscar.jar
    103: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         UDP Blink Message Time = 0 seconds (0=off)
    104: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Log Entry Count        = 1000
    105: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         TCP Timeout            = 45000mS
    106: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         NetLinx Sockets Message Queue Size               = 50
    107: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         PhastLink Receive Message Queue Size             = 500
    108: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         ICSNet Receive Message Queue Size                = 200
    109: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         LontalkHost Message Queue Size                   = 500
    110: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Lontalk Message Queue Size                       = 500
    111: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         UDP Transmit Message Queue Size                  = 500
    112: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         ICSP 232 Transmit Message Queue Size             = 500
    113: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         ICSNet Transmit Message Queue Size               = 500
    114: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         PhastLink Transmit Message Queue Size            = 3000
    115: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Axlink Transmit Message Queue Size               = 3000
    116: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Message Dispatcher Message Queue Size            = 500
    117: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         IP Connection Manager Message Queue Size         = 500
    118: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         TCP Transmit Threads Message Queue Size          = 600
    119: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Diagnostic Manager Message Queue Size            = 500
    120: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Device Manager Message Queue Size                = 2000
    121: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Route Manager Message Queue Size                 = 200
    122: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Connection Manager Message Queue Size            = 3000
    123: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Notification Manager Message Queue Size          = 3000
    124: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Interpreter Message Queue Size                   = 3000
    125: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Routing Flags          = $1
    126: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         AMX URL               = www.amx.com
    127: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         CRL Check level    = 0
    128: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         IPSec Enabled       = 0
    129: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Timeline Loopcnt   = 10
    130: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         IP Threshold           = 600
    131: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Lontalk Threshold      = 50
    132: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Interpreter Threshold  = 2000
    133: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Device Holdoff         = 0
    134: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         URL Entry Count = 0
    135: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         DNS Entry[0] = 192.168.1.1
    136: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         DNS Entry Count = 1
    137: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Domain Name = 
    138: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         Serial Number = '210503p3540363'
    139: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         System = 10
    140: 11-01-2006 WED 01:29:06 ConfigurationManager  
         LoadConfiguration Complete (26920).
    
    

    I did a format disk and loaded a blank program but that didn?t resolve anything. So then I down graded to 3.14.227 and I still got errors in the log file and the web service didn?t start (I know 3.14.227 was working before because I opened the web interface before the upgrade process so I could compare the old look to the new) I then downgraded one more version to 3.12.335 and the web service started and the log file was clear of errors. Next I upgrade to 3.21.343 and the new web server finally started working.

    I thought there might be an issue with upgrading from 3.14.227 to 3.21.343 so I downgraded back to 3.14.227 and all was fine. I upgraded back to 3.21.343 and all was still fine so I don?t know why I had the problems I did.

    I like the idea of the auto time syncing and DST rules (once I figure out how AMX is counting days in the month) but I?m going to take a pass on this newest version for now. Maybe it?s my DUET memory settings. I?m not using DUET modules right now and I?m not clear on how this memory mapping is supposed to work.
  • Options
    Joe HebertJoe Hebert Posts: 2,159
    B_Clements wrote:
    What happened to the system message log that was featured in non-duet firmware?
    1) Check the ?Show Device Tree? checkbox at the bottom of any web page.

    2) Click the icon next to the NI-Master in the device tree floating window.

    3) Click on Log.
  • Options
    alexanboalexanbo Posts: 282
    You can also select device 0 from the drop down box in the top left corner.
  • Options
    sonnysonny Posts: 208
    When I have a blank program or small program the web interface seems ok (maybe a few seconds per page) With a larger program the web interface is pretty much unusable as it takes about 30 seconds to go from page to page and while it’s doing that my CPU gets pegged at 100% and my browser hangs.

    I'm having the same issue and notified tech support, only suggestion they had was upping duet memory, but I don't think that addresses a browser hanging up. It looks like they've gone to using an applet for system management, and the applet is sitting in a loop waiting for the netlinx to respond to the request. Whatever the issue...pretty unacceptable to release something like this.

    edited to add: looks like this is a compatibility issue with FireFox, the interface works fine on IE. However, getting back to the time settings, seems to be very flaky. I tried to set my time zone and network sync...hitting Accept either changes the time zone to the international date line, or changes me back to manual from network. I setup daylight savings as well, but the time on the processor never changed.
  • Options
    Joe HebertJoe Hebert Posts: 2,159
    alexanbo wrote:
    You can also select device 0 from the drop down box in the top left corner.
    Yup, much easier and one less step. Thanks.
    sonny wrote:
    looks like this is a compatibility issue with FireFox, the interface works fine on IE
    I see a difference between them also but using either browser pegs the CPU at 100%. I always keep the task manager minimized in the system tray and IE actually pegs the CPU for much longer period of time than Firefox but the page gets drawn on the screen much faster with IE. When the CPU is pegged with Firefox I can?t navigate to a different page. When the CPU is pegged with IE I can navigate to a different page. Both browsers are really putting a strain on my PC.

    I also found that I can?t even get into the web interface with Firefox sometimes. It just sits there forever. Then I try it with IE and I can get in. If I reboot my NI-700 then I can use Firefox again. It?s pretty difficult to draw any real conclusions because I?m getting inconsistent results.

    Maybe I have issues with my PC, or my network, or maybe it?s the program I have running in the NI-700 that was written for a NI-3000 (I don?t ?think? that should matter). Or maybe it?s my JRE. Marc Scheibein mentioned in another thread about G3 web control that you need v1.4.2_04. I?ve got v1.4.2_03 installed. Or maybe I still have some sort of residual affects from the problems I had when I upgraded the firmware. I really don?t know.
    sonny wrote:
    I tried to set my time zone and network sync...hitting Accept either changes the time zone to the international date line, or changes me back to manual from network.
    I didn?t notice that before but yes I see the same thing. The time is correct on my master but I didn?t realize the setting got changed on the web interface.
    sonny wrote:
    I setup daylight savings as well, but the time on the processor never changed.
    Should it? We?re out of daylight saving time now. How did you set your rules up?

    (Note: Reminder that DST rules change next year to 2nd Sunday in March thru the first Sunday in November for most of us living in the U.S.A.)
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