Home dbx User Forum dbx Archive Threads dbx Archive General dbx Archive General Discussion

DR 260 Yorkville U15P settings (my humble findings)

mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
Got the 4 yorkville U15P's in the club. Live rock band situation, 800 seater room. Defeated the x-over, and crossed at 82hz with a 24 db lr slope on the dr 260. 41 hz 24 db lr hi pass on the subs. 4ms delay on the tops, various delay times on the 8 18\" subs (to get rid of the power alley syndrome). Pinked the room, but did not trust the curve it gave me. House eq ended up quite flat with a few notches here and there to get rid of room boom. Over all, very pleased with the performance of the dr 260. An enormous difference in sound quality. Thanks gadget for all your help on this one. Matt Jordan Maxxsounds audio/visual co. Boise, ID

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Yo Matt...
    Thanks.. I wish I could hear your systemm.. keep up the good work.
    Gadget
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Went in to do the packed house show, boy was I WRONG. 4 Yorkville U15P's went into clip lights right away. Seems like they can't keep up. Funny thing was, all four boxes clipped at different input volumes. All four at 12 noon settings. I checked, and rechecked the drive rack 260 settings. Snare drum was the clip culprit. I guess crossing higher is the way to go. I'm a little concerned now, since the overall foh spl wasn't that great. I expected a little more out of these tops......Matt
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Matt.. try 120 hz.. its the bass that requires the most power...you can always lower the xover point if that works...I'm limited to 2400 watts for my mids and thats BARELY enough running @ 105 hz...unfortunately I have no experience with these cabs.. but its been my experience that passive and powered speakers offer very little wiggle room and usually don't offer the performance of bi, and tri amped systems...

    Is it possible that the speakers are reacting to distortion at its inputs? Some amps sense distortion as clipping and limit the speakers output to keep from damaging the speakers...Make sure the signal chain has plenty of headroom and that even the channel strips don't clip.

    Interesting, I went to the website and they don't give an SPL rating but instead have a \"Warning, this speaker capable of EXTREME sound pressure levels\" After perusing the site for a time I noticed that the limiter seems to be tied to the HF circute which bears out my feeling that the limiter isn't so much because of volume but is more frequency Dependant...Are you relying on the auto EQ to set the equalizer? Try flat response on the GEQ and see what happens. Also try limiting the HI of the channel strip for the snare and maybe a bit of compression on that channel if you have that ability..

    Keep us informed..
    good luck..

    Last nights big show went extremely well...MAN was it LOUD.. the band just rocked...14,000 watts in a 50 x50 club...it was ELECTRIC! Got a great recording too...
    Gadget
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Hi Gadget, No clipping anywhere before the U15p's. plenty of headroom on the system. drive rack 260 just idling along. I checked on the site too- no mention of spl anywhere. These boxes come highly recommended by a lot of respected cats out there. From all the literature and reviews I have read, I expected more out of the box. Crossing higher is probably all I can do at this point, even though the subs sound like #@*! at 125hz. I'll start w/ 100hz which is the factory setting on the yorkie box, and go from there. The limiting is hardly audible: sounds like a very soft knee comp going on. I am wondering if I should set the limiter on the drive rack 260 to keep the limiter on the box itself from engaging. probably 6 of one, and a half dozen of the other. More packed-house experimenting tonight. Matt
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Yikes.. good luck...
    G
  • MikeyMikey Posts: 82
    Put a limiter on the snare. The kick is sometimes a problem. Put a limiter on that, too. If it's those instruments, or just the snare, causing the peak lights to glow, fix the problem at the source.

    It is not at all uncommon for those instruments to produce a HUGE peak that will cause a clip light to glow like geraniums at Chernobyll.

    Mikey
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Well, things went a little better. Raising the x-over point helped quite a bit. I still expected more out of this top than I got. when you get to the point of trading off freqs for performance, I believe you should take a step up in power, and that's what I thought I was doing. That's what I get for buying without trying! Oherwise, the cabs are really smooth sounding, and array beautifully at lower spl's. Matt
  • MikeyMikey Posts: 82
    Matt,

    Did you try a compressor/limiter on the snare? I have two U15s (bi-amp'd) per side and it just kicks butt for 1200+/- person rooms.

    If you look at the waveform of a snare or kick, the peak is some 20+ dB higher than the \"body\" of the instrument. The idea is to compress/limit during the peak and then release to allow the body to come up. That's the sound that you hear on records, at least.

    The problem you are having is that the snare peaks are so fast, that you don't perceive them like you would the body of the snare. Essentially, you are trying to get the snare sounding right in the mix based on the sound of the snare body and not snare transient, or peak. Problem is, the body is 20+ dB down from that peak.

    It's that transient/peak that is killing you. Once you drop the peak or bring up the body all will be good.

    The music that you used during your first post is a testament to this. I'm assuming that it was pre-recorded stuff. If that's the case, it has already been limited and compressed to death.

    FWIW, I usually try to maintain about a 12-14 dB crest factor in my mixes. That is, my peaks are about 12-14 dB hotter than my RMS levels.

    Don't give up on these boxes. While I haven't tried the powered versions, the passive boxes are amazing when all is dialed in correctly.

    I'll post more on your crossover setup later. There are some problems there.

    Mikey
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Hi Guys, The snare in question is a sample from an Alesis DM Pro drum module. Already heavily compressed. I would not want to squash it again. The kick is a DM Pro sample as well, same thing.... Matt
  • MikeyMikey Posts: 82
    Matt,

    Let's take a big step backward in this...

    What are your design parameters- What SPL at what distance? What coverage angles? What haystacking levels? What headroom requirements?

    Let's see if you even are close to what you expect with these boxes.

    FWIW, I just did \"Mainstay\", \"Our Hearts Hero\", and \"The Afters\" in a room that holds about 800. At 65-70 feet from stage I had 107+ dBA. Occasionally, I saw the clip lights come on in the amps. That's normal in a gig like that.

    Again, I have 2-U15s per side and was only using one QW218 per side for this event.

    It was freakin' loud in the first 35+ feet and almost tolerable at 85 feet. All bands used live drums-with the nasty transients that I spoke of.

    Please get back with the design parameters and we can investigate further.

    Mikey
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Mikey wrote:
    Matt,

    Let's take a big step backward in this...

    What are your design parameters- What SPL at what distance? What coverage angles? What haystacking levels? What headroom requirements?

    Let's see if you even are close to what you expect with these boxes.

    FWIW, I just did "Mainstay", "Our Hearts Hero", and "The Afters" in a room that holds about 800. At 65-70 feet from stage I had 107+ dBA.

    Please get back with the design parameters and we can investigate further.

    Mikey
    Hi Mikey, The whole club is about 10,000 suare feet. The mostly-closed in listening room is 50' wide by100' long. 110db at 50 to 60' is what I have been doing for the last five years at this venue. The stage is looking at the back wall 100' away. There are 8 front loaded 18's on the floor across the front of the 3' high stage. Stage is 30' wide by 15' deep. The U15P's (two on each side) are flown 8' high. (the bottom of the box is 8' high) with a slight downward angle to keep the horn from bouncing off the ceiling. The ceiling is 13' high. The venue packs out every night. I do semi-national acts every week but most of them are accoustic guitar and vox only. They always want a lot. Ha. Board is a mackie sr3204. 6 way monitor world on stage. Amps are all crown mt or ma 2400's. Need more? Peace, Matt
  • MikeyMikey Posts: 82
    This is a good start. At 110dBA, you are pushing the limits of these boxes. Right now, the only thing I have to go on are the unpowered versions. They max out at 127dB/1W/1m. That means at 50 feet, you are about 102-103 or so. This assumes that your room's critical distance is greater than 50 feet.

    So, if you expect 110 at 50 feet, you are already short 7-8 dB. Peaks need around another 10-12 to sound right, so you are essentially not capable of meeting your expectations with this system.

    There are some reinforcement issues caused by the room that can help a bit, but the highs still tend to fall off at around 6dB/doubling of distance within the critical distance of a space.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

    You might want to look at the Community SLS960. Lotsa output at a reasonable price.

    BTW, the reason that I can push my boxes so hard is that I have different crossover settings, cleaner amps, and very controlled limiters. Since you are using powered boxes, you do not have acces to these parameters.

    Just wondering, why are you going so loud? Most national acts in big rooms shoot for between 102 and 105 throughout the venue.

    Mikey
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    Mikey wrote:



    BTW, the reason that I can push my boxes so hard is that I have different crossover settings, cleaner amps, and very controlled limiters. Since you are using powered boxes, you do not have acces to these parameters.



    Mikey
    What are your x-over settings? I assume when you are writing "very controlled limiters" you are talking about the drive rack 260? Or are you using the yorkville processor with the U15's? What does your rig consist of? Thanks, matt
  • MikeyMikey Posts: 82
    I'm using the XTi 4000 on the speakers with no external processing. I have used the DR260/PLX3402 before with the same results, though.

    My electric crossovers are 91 and 96 Hz give or take. My acoustic crossover is about 93 Hz depending on the amount of haystacking. I might vary the electric crossover points by as much as 8 or 12 Hz depending on the amount of haystack that I put on the system.

    Mikey
  • mvdrumsmvdrums Posts: 23
    I'l tell you one thing, The drive rack 260 excels in my application. I know the rta and pink noise generator might have it's place in problem rooms or systems but the yorkies sound fine flat with a couple of notches here and there. Those guys at Yorkville did plenty of homework. The things the rta was asking me to do...... were WAY off base...... After placing the mic in about ten different places. Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate the sound coming out of the Yorkville U15P's, they just don't put out enough spl for the app. I guess you might squeeze a little more out by bi-amping but I am trying to simplify the rig so I don't have to be there ALL the time. Set it, lock up the drive rack, no worries...... I guess I AM dreaming......Thanks for all the help you guys. Matt
    Acoustic crossover?
  • DraDra Posts: 3,844
    Yeah, Acoustic crossover? Band pass boxes?

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Tom Danley(Danley Sound and former SPL labs sound god...) designed the Unity horn FOR them... and licensed it to them. I venture to guess you didn't read Mikey's White paper over at the \"former forum home\"... Or most any of my posts regarding the auto EQ and room interaction? There he states that you don't let the Auto EQ do anything below 170 hz and above 700hz... because the room will do exactly what you have experienced...When you place the mic anywhere in the room you are setting up multiple points for reflected cancellations...which will cause the HF response to freak out...and room modes which will kill bass response. try laying the mic on the floor.. or flat against the ceiling, or try and recreate a PZM setup... that will eliminate a bunch of reflection errors.

    Mikey, you da man...
    gadget
Sign In or Register to comment.