DR260 Speaker & Amp Tuning
easyrider1340
Posts: 15
Hi, all - I'm not new here, but haven't visited in a while. ...forgot my username and password, so I'm a newbie per registration.
Existing Equipment:
(4) QSC RMX 2450 (bridged) on (4) JBL SR4719X
(2) QSC RMX 1450 (bridged) on (2) JBL SR4732X (1) QSC PLX3602 (stereo)
(1) Driverack 260 - mono in, output 1 to 4732's (using internal xovers), output 3 to 4719's
This has worked great, and the system sounds good. But I feel it can sound better. When I first purchased the DR260, I had two Peavey SP2 tops (1x15), two SP218 bottoms, and I had just purchased the SR4719X. So, I was running this all together. I had a great friend of mine with experience on the DR come down and tune it for the amps and speakers that I was running. With that said, I never reconfigured the DR for the existing rig. But, it does sound pretty good as-is, and we get a LOT of compliments. We play many different venues and have saved EQ and output settings accordingly for room variations and to reduce/increase output levels of the system (some clubs have strict level requirements).
So, I have all of the settings for the existing system, and I've learned a little bit more about the DR through trial and error - but I'm a little nervous to move forward. I'd like to actually use the tunings that reside in the DR to match my existing system. If I go in and apply the tunings, will I loose my original configurations? It looks like the new firmware has settings for my amps now, so if I used those amp and speaker setttings, if it doesn't work (from my stupidity), can I just rotate the wheel back to my \"Club A\" setting and be back in business? Or do I have to reconfigure the whole thing?
Thanks a bunch.
[edit: revised amp for tops]
Existing Equipment:
(4) QSC RMX 2450 (bridged) on (4) JBL SR4719X
(2) QSC RMX 1450 (bridged) on (2) JBL SR4732X (1) QSC PLX3602 (stereo)
(1) Driverack 260 - mono in, output 1 to 4732's (using internal xovers), output 3 to 4719's
This has worked great, and the system sounds good. But I feel it can sound better. When I first purchased the DR260, I had two Peavey SP2 tops (1x15), two SP218 bottoms, and I had just purchased the SR4719X. So, I was running this all together. I had a great friend of mine with experience on the DR come down and tune it for the amps and speakers that I was running. With that said, I never reconfigured the DR for the existing rig. But, it does sound pretty good as-is, and we get a LOT of compliments. We play many different venues and have saved EQ and output settings accordingly for room variations and to reduce/increase output levels of the system (some clubs have strict level requirements).
So, I have all of the settings for the existing system, and I've learned a little bit more about the DR through trial and error - but I'm a little nervous to move forward. I'd like to actually use the tunings that reside in the DR to match my existing system. If I go in and apply the tunings, will I loose my original configurations? It looks like the new firmware has settings for my amps now, so if I used those amp and speaker setttings, if it doesn't work (from my stupidity), can I just rotate the wheel back to my \"Club A\" setting and be back in business? Or do I have to reconfigure the whole thing?
Thanks a bunch.
[edit: revised amp for tops]
0
Comments
After some more thought, I'm thinking that I will not loose the original configuration.
As an example, I should be able to have settings for my large PA, and settings for a scaled down PA.
I think I answered my own question. Anybody want to confirm that?
DRA
I downloaded the new GUI and have been playing with it on my 2nd laptop. It's working fine (un connected).
I have another question -
In the setup wizard, my QSC RMX show up as an available option. I run my high amps bridged (1 QSC RMX1450 bridged on each 4732). However, the GUI doesn't offer an option for bridged.
What should I do?
The wizard must assume this:
top cabs 4 ohms each
1 amp on used, so can't bridge @ 2 ohms
Subs 4 ohms each, but only using 1 cab
1 amp ok @ 4 ohms
It shouldn't assume this, but.....
I just tried to do an 8 ohm cab and it just doesn't like to bridge top cab amps. (tried Crown CE's)
You might try setting up the wizard to compare, with subs, the 1450 amps, bridged and normal, and compare how they change the X-over gains, and limiting, etc. then do the wizard with all the correct amps (normal on tops) and adjust the x-over, etc accordingly. Kind of troublesome though, but it may be the best way to get where you want.
OH GADGET! A little help.
DRA
It doesn't really matter that the wizzard doesn't show an option for bridged-mono mode... There are no meaningful configuration settings in the DriveRack for amplifiers because you have to manually set-up your gain structure anyway...:)
Kevin
I did perform gain structure method per back of the manual. I did this at home with the amp racks, mixer, etc. Unfortunately when I got to the gig, the system sounded like crap. ....way too much bass (thought I'd never say that!). The DR260 doesn't know that I have 2 double 18 cabs on each side. It thinks I have 1 sub and one 1 top, so it pours on the gain to the sub out.
I didn't have time to sort it out during load-in, so I just turned back to my old custom setting and cranked the amps back up full bore.
Funny, enough - I never see a clip light on my equipment:
- mixer: never in the red, usually running at -10db
- DR260: never in the red, barely see a light \"on the dash\"
- amps: never a clip light
Maybe I'm just lucky?
Lower the crossover gain on your subs...or turn the attenuators down on the amplifier that drives your subs...8)
That's what setting proper gain structure does for you...:D
Kevin
I have read that some people do keep their amplifier attenuators turned all the way up and set their gain structure in reverse accordingly... This is not recommended...:D
Kevin
PS. Since you used the term "volume" I highly recommend you check this out...
Edit: Terry,...I just checked-out your website... I gotta hear you guys play sometime!....
DRA
We do most of our gigs in Indiana and Illinois - they seem to appreciate ($$) live music more than the clubs we've played in KY - although we play KY a couple of times a year usually.
On a side note - my day gig is Customer Quality Engineering Mgr at the big T company in Southern Indiana, same as the one near you.
Is their a linear relationship between where I run my master fader (-10 ~ -12 db) to the amount I will be attenuating the amps? My mid/high would be set at 18 and the sub amps at 30. So in other words, will I be able to run my masters closer to unity (with all things being equal)? Will my overall volume level be the same as before I did gain structure?
Thanks - Terry
About your question of the idiot turning your amps up... deny access to the controls (without blocking air flow). Perhaps Kevin will shoot you a pic of his \"access blocker\" from his install. You may can still see it on the \"audiophile\" post, but it's a long one, just look for pictures on pg 15. Lexan (add holes), perferated metal, etc. would all work.
2nd option, though not idiot proof, but makes it harder.... remove the knobs. Most have a set screw (or 2) to hold it on (either slotted for a screwdriver or allen headed). While they can still be turned (if they are not reccessed) there is no visual indication that they are not full on (temptation).
Hope this helped.
DRA
I own a control systems integration company named Automation Authority, Inc... Been to TMMI several times... We have a site-office at TMMK and a fab shop 2-miles down the road....
Anyways,...we took an old network rack that Wal-Mart left behind and converted it to an amp rack... We installed lexan doors, cut holes to access power switches and muting buttons, and installed locks to keep curious hands out...
Kevin
I'm envious. I dream of owning my own business. ....just haven't figured out my niche yet. Does K give you steady work?
Sorry for the late reply... I been working all weekend... TMMK is hot and cold... We had a terrible first two quarters but now we have more work than we can possibly handle!... As far as your dream is concerned...when the opportunity arises go for it or you'll always wonder what if?...:D
Cheers!
Kevin
Kevin, BTW Jon Wilder was another of my \" student's\" I don't know what happened to him... (southern CA. ) I have had several sets of them from time to time, one was our original crossover guy but he moved to the PSW and hasn't been back.. We still talk from time to time though..
I have a ton of links that I have collected... one I think you'll like is the MAD array...:
http://www.getmad.com/index.html
or Scott's page:
http://members.cox.net/pasystem1/
or this parts/ equ site:
http://mcm.newark.com/
You boyz keep up the good work...
G
When I select my SR4732X and Sr4719X cabs in the wizard, the DR automatically sets the crossover gains to -10 db and -16 db, respectively. In other posts, I seen the suggestion to start them both at 0 db. I'm a little confused on how it affects the overall balance and/or gain structure of my system.
Should I start at 0 and allow gain structure process to set them where they fall. ...or allow the DR to set the crossover gain as I stated above? It looks like I would be losing 10 ~ 16 db by starting here.
I had to run through all of this again during a one-off sound job that I had where I was able to bring out my A&H GL2200. I love mixing!!
Thanks!
TM
I would try this:
Subs:
HPF 45Hz BW18dB/Oct
LPF 105Hz R-L24dB/Oct
Gain +3dB
Tops:
HPF 108Hz L-R24dB/Oct
LPF Out BS6dB/Oct
Gain 0dB
Then set your gain structure again by following the procedure described in this post: http://www.dbxpro.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=959
Kev
PS. So you did it...started your own business...:) Nice hearing back from you!... I know you will do well!...
I'm just not sure why the DR automatically adjusts them so far down. It seems as though one of them would start out at zero (as you mentioned), and the other would be less than zero. Zero being the gain on your least powerful source (in my case, my tops are the least powerful source).
Does my theory make sense or am I lost again?
Regarding the business, I really didn't start anything that I hadn't already been doing (but I did pick up some new business cards!
Terry
It all boils down to personal taste and what sounds good to you... I would use 0dB for a base line and adjust from there... I suggested a 3dB boost on the subs because I like lots of bass...8) Just be sure to re-setup your gain structure anytime you make a change in your crossover gains... Once this is done you can balance your system by adjusting the attenuators on your amps,..but don't go above the point that's 3dB below clipping...:)
Cheers,
Kev
I think I have an answer. At first glance I would agree that the big cuts at the x-over gains are \"wasting\" energy. But, let's take a closer look. The recommended amp settings are low (39%, etc) so increasing the x-over gains would require turning the amps down even more. Then the issue becomes \"noise\".
Also, when using the wixard if you are bridging the amps for the mid's/top's amps (you can't tell the 260 that), DON'T tell the wixard that you are bridging the sub amp. This way it's \"apples to apples\" and the wixard will set the gains much closer to each other (-10 & -13 I think).
The wizard also doesn't know how many amps or how many speakers per amp and will assume 1 amp channel with 1 cab attached. Then you can use good ol' math to adjust the gains of the crossover to compensate for 2 or 3, etc cabs per amp channel. An increase of +6db from increasing speaker #'s or multiple amps and speakers should then be compensated at the x-over gains. If the \"additions\" are increased evenly (1:1) for all outputs (H/M/L), then no gain adjustments are neccessary. Some tweeking may be required, as always, but you can trust the 260 (at least as far as you can spit).
DRA
Does your software also "suggest" these lower crossover settings? If we should start at 0 (which I agree with), why does it suggest different?
Terry
I updated my original post - I now use a PLX3602 in stereo to my tops.
Also, what math are you referencing? Linear db add/subtract?
Thanks,
Terry
I don't think it really matters what the wizzard suggest...
Just curious: Is your system set up indoors and ready to tune?... Did you buy the RTA mic?... How far are you from G-town?...
Kev
Scratch that. I will just give the example.
Gadget, give us the #'s, please.
Top cab example (assuming 1 sub cab):
1 speaker @ 400w = 90db
+
1 speaker @ 400w (2 total) = 93db
+
2 speakers @ 400w (x2) (4 total) = 96db
IF the values are correct, and no changes to the sub config, then if there is a +6db \"acoustical\" gain (-0- acoustical gain for sub) then the crossover gain for the High's would be reduced -6db (or Lo gain increased +6db, or some combo (-3db & +3 db)) to re-achieve system balance.
There are basic formulas for figuring output in +db's by adding power, adding speakers, physical coupling, etc.
Maybe Gadget will inpart some wisdom. (facts and figures)
Bottom line - Can a single 18\" sub with 200w amp keep up with a 20 cab bi-amped line array with 50,000w of power? Sure it can. (If the Hi / Mid's are turned down enough.) \"Keep up\" was not the best terminology to use. Should have used \"be balanced\". Sorry
I still think the key to the lower gain settings is related to \"noise\". As a test you may set them to -0- and do a gain structure. I bet the amp levels will be comparatively reduced (knobs, not output).
Gadget?
DRA
AS Dra said the Wizard doesn't know what the actual speaker compliment is. Though in a system with 4 (extremely power hungry) 4719's the horns still win the DB battle even with all the subs together... It's 12.5 db louder @ 1 meter 1 watt.. thats a LOT!
Short of getting an answer from JBL (and good luck with that your chances are better of getting 2 hole in one's on the same day on the same golf course....) I'd recommend starting the gain structure process with the subs starting @ -0- db and lowering the mids 1 db and the horns 11.5 db. The gain structure will still require some amp adjustment.
I guess if you had some Mac 5000, 3600, and 2402's to do the testing we might be enlightened ... but it might be their way of saying >>>Your mileage may vary...set it yourself...
Gadget