DRPA vs 260 volume

Dra

Just got back from a weekend convention gig. Speaking and background music during the day. Dance one night and talent contest and dance the second night. 260 used for main events and talent show (PA for monitors). DJ mixer to DRPA (typical setup) for 1st dance tons of volume.
2nd dance decided to use the 260 and avoid more cable swapping. Cross-overs the same, post PEQ's the same, limiting, etc... the same. Could only get about 75% the volume from the night before, most noticable on the low end. If I tried boosting the DJ mixer input gains or the low eq I'd get that nasty clip that sounds like speakers bottoming out so I had to back down. I have never fooled with the input mixers on the 260. Always left them (channel and master) at -0-. Am I missing boat here? Should the gain structure include these?

Is this correct?...
Get board output to -0- on meters.
Get 260 input to -0- on meters with 1 / 2 faders.
Get 260 output to -0- on meters with master fader.

Seems quite simple if this is correct.
If not correct, then what?

Thanks, DRA

fotofx

Did you have the automatic gain insert on? Did you look at the inputs on the 260 (on the gui double click the first little box)?

Steve

Dra

No, I use AFS and Notch filter.
Yes, I did open them and they were exactly where they default to. (-0- & -0-)

DRA

Dra

Update.

Hooked up board to 260 and ran pink thru the board.
Byassed all EQ's, limiters, etc.
Set pink in channel to unity with PFL.
Channel fader at +6.
Master fader at +12 all the way up (70% hitting the only red LED)
Adjusted 260 input fader so that +18 was constant without hitting 22 at all.
Set all x-overs to 45 - out.
Adjusted x-over gains to +18 on output meters.
Set all limiters to +18 with overshoot of 2.
Set crossovers back to regular frequency settings.

Sub range 45 - 100. This caused a 6-12 db drop on that output meter. Does this sound right or should I set the outputs with the ranges divided at the x-over?

I did find out that the Master input fader is to cross mix the 1 & 2 input channels. So left this at -0-.

DRA

Gadget

Dra

Well.. technically the input fader should go to unity and the input fader should be used to set the gain to insure NO clipping on the input.. but you probably don't have that... The output master faders you didn't say if the procedure had helped.. what are the amps input attenuators set to? I have forgotten what you have for equ? and don't have the time to look for it...

Kinda sounds like your having to beat the hell out of the amps to get any sound?
Gadget

Dra

Hey Gadget,
Missed ya the last few days. Was beginning to worry.
Amps set to approx 1 o'clock (Crown' 1300w (I think) on 800w subs from the wizard, Yorkville's 475w on 400w tops from manual clip method)

Have not hooked up amps and speakers since the last gain experiment that I posted.

The pink noise generator was set to unity with the channel input gain knob.
I pushed the channel and board master up to force the board output into a consistant, but not constant, clipping condition. According to the Peavey manual, the max output is +21db for the board, with the the clip indicator igniting at +19db. The LED meters go from +9db (yellow) to \"clip\" (red).

If the board masters are showing +9db constant and clip (+19db) consistant, what should the 260's input meter's show? Adjust the 260's input fader to +19db(ish) on the meter? Then, crossover gains for output to match? With or without bandwidth limiting for hi's and lo's?

The main issue was that the 260 in a side by side wasn't as loud as the PA.

Thanks,
DRA

Gadget

Dra..
Can you call me? theres just too much going on here to keep track of. If not I will try and make sense of it but the thing is I am not certain what the amp setup is... sounds like your trying to use amp sensitivity settings?... anyway 218-999-7100 if you can .. any time during the day weekdays or week end..weekend nights are bad (of course0 but most weekday eve''s are ok too...
G

Dra

Gadget,
The set-up wizard for the CE2000 amp (normal or bridged) says to set the amps input attenuator(s) to 63%. I'm not adjusting the 260 or GUI knob, just setting the amp knob. To set the AP3000 amps I brought the board outputs to clip with pink noise and turned the amps up until they clipped and then back a bit (also in the 60-65% range).

Does this help?

Do I still need to call?
If so, do I need to have board, 260, and amps hooked up?
The earliest I could call today would be between 4 & 5 (central). That may put you in a pinch. Saturday, I can call pretty much at your convenience. What is best for you?

David

Gadget

Well, No you don't need to but you seem to have a lot of questions that always seem to get half answered and seem to crop up again over time...You didn't really answer my main question regarding the output volume question...what was the change, was it that the volume dropped between a DRPA and a 260 or that the 260 dropped in volume from one gig to another, did the changes you made solve the problem, why do you cling to the amp sensitivity thing when it only really works when using matched components and non real world conditions?

One of the universal truths is that there is no need to \"push\" digital to get that analog fat warmth... you don't need to drive the Driverack to near distortion to get \"that sound\" that beauty of the driverack is that it eliminates all the interconnection hassle and signal degradation. There is no need to get anywhere near the clip level in the driverack. It also seems to me that you have missed the point of the gain structure. Its to get all the components of the system talking the same language...working in their most linear ranges. When you do the gain structuring with the speakers disconnected its to find the clip point of the amps and all the other system components... that means that the amp sensitivity setting is set by the gain structure and NOT some magic do all number..I'm speaking of amp sensitivity setting...of course...So let me know what your thinking here.

If you want to call earlier is better.. so if you want call as soon as you can I guess is what I'm saying... we could get a lot hashed out in a short time.. here it takes a great deal of time since I'm a HUNTIN PECKER... chuckle

Gadget

Dra

As my father always says, \"Words do not convey meaning.\"

Maybe I can simplify this.
Let's forget clipping and such. Assume pink noise as source.
1. Whatever the output from the mixer is, -3 , 0, +6, etc..., the input of the 260 should match. Correct?
2. If it does not, adjust the input control until it does. Correct?
3. Each used 260 output should match the 260 input. False, because the incoming energy is now divided by the crossover?
Should anything be done to the the crossoverer gains? Here is why I ask. If CE2000 amps are used for tops and subs, the wizard places both crossover gains at 0. If the sub amp is changed to bridged, the wizard changes the low gain to -6. Let's assume that I was stupid (hard to imagine huh?) and even though I was using CE2000's with the low amp bridged, I selected custom for my amps. What process would get me to the point of adjusting the low crossover gain to -6 on my own?

Now to the volume diference. The difference is between the PA and the 260. The PA is racked with my DJ mixer and is always used for DJ stuff. If I replace the PA with the 260 for use with the DJ mixer, I do not get the same volume. All EQ's, limiters, etc are matched between units. This led me to think that it had to be in the input level of the 260 compared to the fixed PA.

Hope you have an answer.

DRA

Dra

As far as the amp sensitivity settings having a magic number, I understand that. It just so happened that the AP3000's and the CE2000's have close to the same sensitivity. Pure happenstance.

DRA

Gadget

Well of course I do...

First off the magic word here is that all the equipment talks the same language.. that we have the best signal to noise ratio available...the equipment is all working in its most linear region.. On the driverack its linear range is very broad. So with that said.. no, the Driverack 260 does not need to match the outputs of the mixer or the inputs of the amps. the key with the driverack is that it NOT CLIP UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!! The Idea is to set the mixer up so that it is just at clipping, that the driverack is in the NEVER CLIP region, and the amps are just below clipping when the mixer is clipping. this way when you see the mixer clipping you know the amps have some headroom, and so that you have an idea of where to start when setting the limiters/comps...When my mixer clips I make sure the DR still has 6-10 db minimum of headroom.

Yes the DRPA has no input controls and only has crossover gain controls so the input and crossover controls for the driverack 260 provide the gain. I think you should forget the input sensitivity spec though.. it just confuses the issues...do the gain structure and let them end up wherever they do after the gain structure. I generally leave the driverack at unity on the outputs unless I need more gain. My input gains are also near unity I believe I have to add some gain about 9db to the subs with my current setup. Whatever you have to do here there is no absolute way...
Gadget

jakobsladderz

There's the +4/-10 db input level button on the DRPA, I don't know what the standard DR260 input level is with the in gains set at zero but I would hazard a guess at +4.. If the DRPA was at -10 it would have been louder. Still, this would show up on the in level meter so if they were at the same point, maybe it's somwthing else.
Were all the output limiters off (or did you try altering the settings of them) in the DR260? the behaviour of the limiters is somewhat different between the two models such that the DRPA would be doing a whole lot less limiting for the same settings..
I guess the check for the latter is to feed the same input signal in and monitor the compressor level gauges (in the utilities menu on the DRPA, not sure on the DR260) and check that the limiting is the same or similar. you would also be able to see on the output meters if they are reaching the same levels.
Both the DRPA and the DR260 can output a +20dbu signal just before clipping and this signal level should be able to push most any power amp into heavy clipping with maximum amp gain (hence running the power amp at less than full gain setting). For this reason you should be able to get as louder signal as you need into any amp... Something's fishy..

Dra

You were right about the input gains on the 260, ended up at 0. Did a same signal comparison with the PA and 260. Input and output meters within 1 or 2 db on each unit. Volume the same. It is possible that the EQ and the AFS may have still been on from the speaking event. I thought I had turned them off, but must not have and that would account for the lost output. I appreciate your patience and for sticking to your guns.
You were also right about the amp attenuators. The wizard said 1 o'clock and limiter at 18. Manual gain structure set amps at 2:30, and 16/17 on limiter.

Gadget

Keep the faith brother.. I'm here when you need me...
G