Looking for suggestions on my PA system

gunman12

Hello. I am new to this forum but am EXTREMELY active as both a moderator and recognized \"answerer of difficult questions\" on several Motorcycle sites. The most annoying thing is when a newbie asks a question and then you never hear back from them. I will follow up-

I have a PA system that I am getting more familiar with by the day but am no expert:
Peavey RSM2062 Mixer
Carvin AC-120S Sequenced power strip
DRPA
Peavey CS800S powering 2 Peavey SP2X (8 Ohm)in stereo. The highs are being fed from the DRPA Xover in stereo. The crossover point is 125hz.
Peavey GPS2600 powering 2 Peavey SP118 Subs (4 OHM) in stereo. The lows are being fed stereo from the DRPA.
I have a second CS800S in the shop. I am thinking that running each bridged to an SP2X will be a good idea. I also have the RTA mic and use it.

What type of info will I need to provide to give a complete picture of my system?
Does anything jump out as being abnormal?
I am unsure of what X-over points, what type and values for those points. Any suggestions?
We run the Bass through the board (not direct) and I want to make sure that the limiters are set correctly to avoid any damage but I don't understand them. Should I use the limiters or roll off the subs higher at the low cutoff?
I thank you guys in advance for any help you might provide.

Gadget

Welcome...
Did you read the \"Read me first before posting\"? If not do so.. The only thing I see is a fairly high crossover point.. but if that works for you...I would suggest trying around 100 hz...I would recommend a Bw 18 HPF @ 45 hz, a LPF of around 100 hz @ LR 24 the tops from there up @ LR 24 2X3 or 2X4 setup with limiter engaged...see the FAQ.. before you post... for more fun and games...I would sweep the delay till it tightens up.. will probably be around 5-9 ms I would think...After some reading ask more questions if you have them.. I'm sure you will..

Gadget

gunman12

Ok Gadget- I went back and read (and reread) the FAQ's and quite a few of the posts. I have been auto Eq'ing the system with all four cabinets working with the RTA Mic setup where our audience sits, which is the common way of doing it in home theater. If I understand your other posts I would just use one stack, with the drivers aligned, and the RTA mic setup halfway between the speakers and the back wall. I would use the flat frequency setting. I also understand that I should go back and manually change the frequencies below 100hz and above 15K (forgive the numbers- I printed a few pages off and left them in our facility. I am relying on memory). Is that correct? I originally used the curve that was a little heavier in the base and a little lighter at the top due to our playing heavy rock and a 32x40 practice facility that has drywalled walls and ceiling with a tile floor.

Based on your suggestion I started playing with the delays and did not notice much of a difference. I am guessing that it has a lot to do with my EQ being off.

I read on the limiters that 4 overeasy is a common setting but I am a little lost on what they actually do in layman's terms and why this setting seems to be so common.

If you were advising me on setup, equipment, and settings, could you think of anything else?

Dra

Gun,
With the OverEasy off (hard knee), the Limiter will kick in at the threashhold point set, say 18db. With OverEasy on, the limiter will kick in before, depending on the # setting you choose (1 being least and 10 (assuming it goes that high) being most, in a ramping \"soft knee\".
For example (and made up responses)...
All threshholds set at 18db.
OverEasy off - limiter hard limits at 18db.
OverEasy @1 - limiter starts to soft limit at 17 db and hard limit at 18 db.
OverEasy @3 - limiter starts to soft limit at 15 db and hard limit at 18 db.
OverEasy @7 - limiter starts to soft limit at 12 db and hard limit at 18 db.
etc, etc.
The OverEasy is designed to make the \"impact\" of the limiting less noticable. The 4 setting is a happpy medium. Start there and play to suit your needs. (but where ever you end up, redo your gain structure).

DRA

gunman12

Hey guys I have questions. I just got my 2nd CS800S back from the shop. Do you think, based on previous posts, That it would be better to run my GPS2600 on my subs in stereo (4 ohm subs) and run each CS800S bridged to my mains (8 ohm mains). or would it be better to run a bridged CS800S to each of my subs and run the GPS2600 in stereo to my mains. Is there some other configuration that may work? I am aware of the specs but is there a reason such as design of the amp, or better control of the speakers between the amps that might make a difference? Thanks, Steve.

Dra

Stereo set-up 1
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
GPS2600 (600w) - SP118 (1200w) Very under powered
GPS2600 (600w) - SP118 (1200w) Very under powered

Stereo / mono set-up 2
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
GPS2600 bidged (2500w) - SP118 (1200w) 2x (2400w) Close

Stereo set-up 3
GPS2600 (600w) - SP2 (1000w) Under powered
GPS2600 (600w) - SP2 (1000w) Under powered
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP118 (1200w) Under powered
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP118 (1200w) Under powered


It looks like #2 is your best balance.

GPS2600 on my subs in stereo (4 ohm subs)

Speakers are 8 ohm separate, 4 ohm in parallel.

Also, if you buy into the \"Damping factor\" theory that the higher the # the more control at low freq's then the GPS is better suited for sub duty.

DRA

gunman12

Dra, My subs are the 4 OHM version which would be 2 ohm parallel which, as I understand it, the GPS cannot drive bridged. In looking at your breakdown, does scenario 1 look better to you realizing that the subs are 4 ohms each? That was kind of my problem in making my mind up which way to go. By the way I know this is off topic and appreciate your help. Ideally I would like to have another GPS but money is a little tight. Steve.

Dra

CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
CS800 bridged (800w) - SP2 (1000w) Close
GPS2600 (900w) - SP118 (1200w) Under powered
GPS2600 (900w) - SP118 (1200w) Under powered

or

GPS2600 (600w) - SP2 (1000w) Under powered
GPS2600 (600w) - SP2 (1000w) Under powered
CS800 bridged (1100w) - SP118 (1200w) Close
CS800 bridged (1100w) - SP118 (1200w) Close

Now the choice is
1100w / 400 damping
900w / 700 damping

sorry, the Peavey site didn't give me a 4 ohm version.

DRA

gunman12

Damn, You pretty much came to the same conclusion I did. I was hoping there was some parameter that I wasn't aware of that would sway the choice one way or the other. I was thinking of building some large subs with 2 -18's at 2 ohms that would let me run the GPS at it's 2 ohm rating in stereo but maybe I will just wire the cabinet at 4 ohm and daisy chain that with my current setup.

Dra

Usually a 4 ohm speaker (single) works to your advantage for getting the most out of an amp. In this case, it actually hurt you. Bummer.
Just remember, even though you are under powering your speakers, you are not neccessarily under powered. As long as you don't clip, you'll be fine. So set you gain structure and limiters.

Even a 2 ohms, you are only giving each speaker 600W. It's a vicious cycle. More power yes, but still under powered. :?

Dra

Gadget

Remember though that bridged mode requires a lot more power...In the majority of the places we play power is a problem, so keep that in mind for your calculations.

When I say RTA/Auto EQ one stack at a time there are several reasons for this. One is that we are trying to get a baseline on the speakers indoors and with a close proximity on axis RTA you will get more speaker than the room.. we try and then flatten the system and store our flat response so we can use that as a comparison so we can begin to see what the room is doing to the sound. If you set up in the center you will not only have the multiple arrival times of the one stack.. but the other also. The problem is that when two signals arrive at different times.. one direct one reflected, and the delayed one arrives 1/4 of a wavelength after the first it will cancel...move a few inches that problem goes away and a different one takes it's place...by placing the mic on the floor or ceiling you are eliminating one more reflected path. Remember that the Low frequencies inside usually set up standing waves which multiply the bass and the RTA will hammer the bass pretty hard.. so some EQ by ear will be necessary. You will also find that the frequencies above 700 hz will be suspect when the Auto EQ manipulates them for the reasons we spoke of earlier...Oh and the other is 150 hz and below.. or there abouts...

Another reason to Auto EQ separately is often the room is different.. as in not a mirror image on both sides. your EQ may be more accurate when done one side at a time.

What ever the case may be multiple samples is necessary to get a feel for the room and who has that kind of time or latitude? Your better off to have a properly tuned flat response system that isn't going to excite the room any more than necessary, and still sound good and be well balanced.

Isn't everything Peavey does in 4 ohms? seems like it...

Gadget

jscott388

Dra wrote:

Stereo / mono set-up 2
GPS2600 bidged (2500w) - SP118 (1200w) 2x (2400w) Close

Sort of got the same setup. However, I am using a pv2600... So should I bridge the 2600 and run it to the 2x sp118?

Right now just running striaght stero.

Thanks

Dra

The manual does not spec a 4 ohm load in bridge mode, but does say that it can do it. According to the manual the PV2600 has 2600w bridged into 4 ohms. Seems like a good match using the \"match to program power\" method (1300w into a 1200w speaker).

DRA

jscott388

Dra wrote:

The manual does not spec a 4 ohm load in bridge mode, but does say that it can do it. According to the manual the PV2600 has 2600w bridged into 4 ohms. Seems like a good match using the "match to program power" method (1300w into a 1200w speaker).

DRA

So really, me getting 550w per side is getting underpowered... So your saying running it bridge would give me 1300w per the 2 speakers which would be better then 550w per side? Kind of get confused on this stuff. However the sp118 I have state that its 1000w program on the back of the speaker jack... So the idea is to have 1.2x - 1.5x the rated program power correct? I have one speaker blownen out. Haven't fixed it since I got the driverack pa...

So run bridge, goto the one speaker, then jump from that speaker and goto next?

Dra

Well, 550 is not under powered unless you're using it (if that makes sense) in order to produce the spl that you need.
You have 1 working sub, right now? Your math is right for power. Regardless, always uses the limiters to protect the speakers.
Speaker jumping is a bit of a trick. Be sure to run the minimum required length for the jumper (make a special) because the first cab will end up using more power than the latter.

DRA

Gadget

well...unless it's a short run I don't even recommend jumper-ing, the first usually gets the brunt (equals burnt when it all goes wrong) equal lengths run from the source are the best way...As for the power issue.. IF your running HIGH AVERAGE SPL music. OR compressing the crap out of it...OR TOO MUCH limiting... then the average power x 2 is sufficient... but if your playing dynamic R&R or blues, or country..or whatever 2 to 4 time the power rating of the speaker is GREAT! (2 x being the minimum I like to see...) because the AVERAGE power used is typically 20-30% average in a normal rock show...LESS if it's like Dave Mathews... most country..etc...

So the adage, \" My car will go 150 MPH\" is valid... BUT do you HAVE to go that fast on the way to the grocery store? NO...

If it's the ones that use the Black Widow (NOT a great SUB driver but capable of enormous power dissipation... but a good low mid...) then the 2600 would be fine... NO CLIP LIGHTS,

BUT... if you want to make a sub out of that speaker...that extra power will make the sub do the best it could...that extra power will allow the speaker to have much more control in it's movement through the air (damping factor added to the xtra power it elicits added control on the cone...especially in 4\" voice coils and up... )

So to me, power is our friend.. and too little power is BAD and when the 2X the rated power (of the amp) is reached... the AVERAGE power is also 2X the norm and POOF... the smoke gets out... and I haven't figured out a way to get it back in


G

jscott388

Yes, one working sub... However using the pv2600, I get the \"red\" lights on over and over. Limiter is set to about 8db.

Playing mostly dacnce music, the billbaord hot 100. Its the red lights DDT lights that come on... Not sure if that is Clipping or not. The PA shows no signs of clipping, mixer and gain all set correctly. And yes it is the black widow.

Gadget

From everything I've read and I know... that IS clip limiting... and it WILL cause the average power to increase.. and the voice coil temps to do likewise...

If your talking about the Driverack... 8db means little to me except that's the threshold you set...what are the other settings...what are the mixer levels @ when the clip light hits?
G

jscott388

Using a denon dj mixer, but as far as gain, everything hits at 0 on the meter, sometimes a little yellow/orange color but never red. I read the read me and played the pink noise and everything stated. Not using subharmic. The bottom amps are turned about 50% and the top are at around 56%. I back the bottoms down to 50% just to be on a safer side.

But all my threshold are set to 9db within the driverack. I have 2 2600 amps, top amps powering 4 200w EV Force Speakers that they don't make anymore and that amp NEVER clips/the DDT red lights NEVER come on.

Its the bottom amp that clips/limits or whatever peavey does. lol

On my xover points, I have 45hz bw18 and xover into100 hz. Trying to remember this off the top of my head. The EV are passive.

Gadget

What happens when you disengage the DDT circuit? Does the amp exhibit more gain.. I would assume so..the Limiter on my QSC amps the power drops from 2400 watts to about 1750...

G