DRPA Gain Structure and XOVER settings help

iwanarock

Hi all ...I have been lurking here for months and trying to do my homework before I asked any questions. Have been through all archives and most of the labs and tutorials. I am learning and have a ways to go, but I think finally some of the material here is starting to sink in and make sense.

I am a guitar player in a 4 piece rock band (guitar, Bass, Drums, Lead Vocals). Me and another member of the band have purchased all of our PA Equipment and we practice in my home studio, so all equipment comes back to my house after gigs. The down side is, I probably have the most knowledge of how to use our PA equipment within the band (which isn't a good thing), so I also get to be the guy who figures out the best way to use our equipment. Again I am guitar player, not a sound professional, but I am more then willing to learn.

After reading everything I could, I know it is now time to try and set up the equipment properly to try and get the best results possible. We have got by with decent sound so far, but depending on the venue we have had some different issues. So after all my reading on how to optimize the sound system, I now realize I have to start with Gain Structure. I am looking for some advise there to start. So after all my reading on the subject, I have a few question on settings before I do this.

First here is my PA Equipment: (and yes I know now we made some mistakes, but it is what it is at the moment):

2 Electro-Voice Force i25 (dual 15' with a horn) as mains (4 ohms, 600W/1200W/2400W, continuous.program, peak)
2 Mackie SWA1501 powered active subs
3 Yamaha SM15V as stage monitors (8ohms, 250W/500W/1000W, continuous,program,peak)
1 QSC PLX 3402 power amp (1100W 4 ohms, 800W 8 ohms)
1 Crown XLS802D power amp ( 800W 4 ohms, 500W 8 ohms)
1 Powered Yamaha EMX5000-20 mixer (500W 4 ohms, 325 8 ohms)
1 DBX Driverack PA
1 DBX RTA mic

The following are my speaker specs:

The mains (Electro-Voice Force i25's:

Frequency Response (-3dB) 46Hz - 18 kHz
Frequency Response (-10dB) 35Hz - 20 kHz
Sensitivity (1W/1 m): 100 db
Max Calc SPL: 134 db
Crossover Frequency: 2.15 kHz
Coverage (nominal -6dB) H° 80 °
Coverage (nominal -6dB) V° 50 °
Rotatable Horn No
System Power Handling (continuous/program/peak) 600/1200/2400 Watts
LF Transducer EV-15E
HF Transducer DH3
Nominal Impedance (Passive) 4 Ohms
Internal Crossover Yes
Speaker Type Fullrange, Mid-High, Two-Way


Mackie SWA 1501 Spec:

Frequency Range (-10db): 36 Hz - 120 Hz
Frequency Response (-3db): 47 Hz - 120 Hz
Max SPL @ 1m: 125 db
Peak output @ 1m: 128 db
Crossover Frequency : 120 Hz (12 db/octave)

The Monitors (Yamaha SM15V) Specs\":

Frequency Response : 55hz-16kHz
Power Handling: 250w/500w/100w (Continuous,Program, Peak)
Impedance: 8 ohms
Sensitivity: 99db SPL (1w/1M)
Crossover Frequency: 1.7 KHz

I have read the DBX Gain structure in the back of the manual probably 25 times or more, I have read and printed Gadgets example from study hall for those who have never done a gain structure before. I intend to follow his example.

The questions I have is the crossover settings for the Driverack PA i should use for my equipment.

The DBX manual states :

Run this signal through the Driverack PA and into the amplifiers with the crossover and output gain section in the Driverack PA set for your particular speakers.

Since none of my Speakers or amps for that matter have tuning preset in the driverack, I have to do this manually. I am running a 2x4 configuration. I have the QSC 3402 driving the Mains (Electro-Voice Force i25). The EV i25's connected to QSC power amp outputs and Driverack PA \"High outs\" to QSC inputs. Then I have low outputs of Driverack PA connected to inputs on the powered subs (Mackie SWA 1501). Of course I have mixer Yamaha EMX5000-20 Outputs to the Driverack inputs. That is primary setup we use through the driverack PA.

Often for practice I use the stage monitors (Yamaha Sm15V) as mains instead of the EV i25's, connected exactly as above. They are easier to move around then the EV i25's, so easier to use for practice. We also have considered using this set up for small venues in the future.

So what I want to do is set up two patches in the Driverack PA and then perform the Gain Structure :

(1) for primary setup .... 2 EV i25 powered by QSC PLX 3402, and Dual powered Mackie SWA 1501 Subs
(2) for practice set up ....2 SM15V powered by QSC PLX 3402 and Dual powered Mackie SWA 1501

I intend to follow gain structure process as Gadget laid out. I have downloaded the 20 min Pink Noise CD. I will use custom settings in each patch for my power amp and speakers. What I need to know is what crossover settings I should use in the Driverack PA?

I have played with the Driverack PA quite a bit ...in a 2x4 setup when I push the xover button it asks me for the following information:
Low (L) parameter has 2 pages ...first page ask for (1) Frequency (2) BW or LR setting, and (3) db parameter ....Second page of Low (L) ask for (1) Frequency (2) BW or LR
So my first question is what do I use for those 5 parameters for the Low (L) ...which I assume is for my subs.

Next Question is (H) parameters for xover ....There is only 1 page for HIGH asking for (1) Frequency (2) BW or LR setting (3) db setting.
What should I make those settings, which i assume are for my mains?
For this I would like to know what I use in my (1) EV i25 primary setup, and what I use in my (2) SM15V practice setup.

On Pro WEB sound, someone recently posted some processor setting for Yamaha Club series speakers with and without subs. The settings with Subs was as follows:
HPF Freq = 90 Hz ......Slope 24db/oct .....Type L-R .....
So i assume for SM15V practice setup I should use these parameters in the driverack PA xover (High) settings:
Frequency = 90 Hz ,LR 24 .....but not sure about db setting (?), is that 24db?

If I could get the xover setting done correctly for my equipment, I can then perform the Gain structure. Any help on what these should be would be greatly appreciated.

Note: .... I though about using the \"Crossover Frequency\" spec's for each Main and the Sub as documented in manuals for the Frequency parameters in the Driverack PA. But then I saw processor setting on Pro Sound for the SM15V with subs and that states HPF Frequency of 90 HZ, while the SM15V manual says crossover Frequency is 1.7Khz ...so I said hum ....what am i missing or not understanding correctly since the parameters are so different. .

FINAL Question .... For my stage setup i use my Crown XLS 802D to drive my Yamaha SM15V's stage monitors. In my 2x 4 setup obviously I don't have the stage monitors running thru the Driverack PA. I assume I should perform the same Gain structure exercise for the Yamaha EMX 5000 mixer and the Crown amp and just skip the Driverack PA part, Is that correct?

So to net out my questions they are as follows:

(1) The five crossover Low (L) parameters I should use in Driverack PA for my Mackie subs (assume they stay the same regardless of mains used):
Freq ...., BW or LR.... Db (page 1) ....Freq......, BW or LR (page 2)
(2) The three crossover (H) parameters I should use in the Driverack for my EV i25's when I use them as Mains (Freq ....BW or LR ....db)
(3) The Three crossover parameters I should use in the Driverack PA for my SM15V when i use them as mains (Freq ...Bw or LR ...db)
(4) Should i perform Gain structure process on Crown XLS 802D and Yamaha EMX5000-20 ...when i have Crown power Sm15V's as stage monitors outside of Driverack PA?

Thanks in advance for any advise and direction you can provide !!!

Gadget

Ok,

I see you have done some reading and comprehended some of what is posted.. the post has a lot of info.. but rambles a bit..

First off you state you read what I provided in the study hall for gain structure setup? Are you referring to the \"welcome\" read me first before posting?

As for the setups, I am not familiar with any of those boxes but I think we can ballpark you.. I often suggest a hi-pass filter for the subs but your have that built in. you also have a 120 hz lo-pass filter to deal with so anything you do with the DRPA for those boxes will have to be below that...For the Ev's I would suggest a 100 hz LR24 crossover since you are somewhat limited by power. Store that preset and name it for future retrieval. Then set up a second preset using something just below the 120 hz lo-pass of the Mackies for the Yamaha's... The reason I suggest this is added vocal clarity since the single stamped frame 15\" woofer won't be working so hard... You could try the 90 hz also but for mains I think the 90 hz would be taxing the Yam's a bit... Follow the example in the \"welcome\" post. As for the DB setting try and leave it @0db to start and do a gain structure. I suspect you'll have to turn the QSC down significantly to match the subs...again as per the welcome post.

\"Note: .... I though about using the \"Crossover Frequency\" spec's for each Main and the Sub as documented in manuals for the Frequency parameters in the Driverack PA. But then I saw processor setting on Pro Sound for the SM15V with subs and that states HPF Frequency of 90 HZ, while the SM15V manual says crossover Frequency is 1.7Khz ...so I said hum ....what am i missing or not understanding correctly since the parameters are so different. .\"

The 1.7 khz is the crossover point between the 15\" and the horns......

\"
FINAL Question .... For my stage setup i use my Crown XLS 802D to drive my Yamaha SM15V's stage monitors. In my 2x 4 setup obviously I don't have the stage monitors running thru the Driverack PA. I assume I should perform the same Gain structure exercise for the Yamaha EMX 5000 mixer and the Crown amp and just skip the Driverack PA part, Is that correct?\"

Correct...

Be well
Gadget

Dra

1) Maybe this will help.
http://www.driverack.com/drug/view_thre ... forumid=16

2 & 3) Are you practicing without subs?
90hz - 120hz is normal. I like 100hz as a cross between subs and tops. The x-over point listed in the speaker specs is the cross of the horn in the tops.

4) Always use gain structures for all amps.

Are you referring to the welcome post on this site?

DRA

PS- I've learned that asking a lot of questions in a big post doesn't work well. Some parts will be over looked. So post back any follow-ups.

iwanarock

First Thanks Gadget & DRA for responding I really appreciate it. Yes I am using the gain structure process that Gadget you have in the Welcome post. I also saw it posted by Kippen in the archives called \"Super Duper Gain Structure Procedure\".

I read your responses multiple times, read the DRPA manual a few more times and looked at my equipment manuals again, unfortunately I am still confused by your responses somewhat.

My questions are around the High Pass filter settings for the DRPA. My confusion starts with a comment you made Gadget:

\"I often suggest a hi-pass filter for the subs but your have that built in. you also have a 120 Hz lo-pass filter to deal with so anything you do with the DRPA for those boxes will have to be below that.\"

I know my subs have a hi-pass filter built in. But I am not currently using that, I don't believe. There are male XLR connectors on the back of the Mackies called \"High Pass (Mid/High Freq) Outputs\" that produce the frequencies above 120hz. The manual says \"Connect these to a pair of full range active speakers or to an amplifier/passive speaker combination. I do not currently have the Mains (EV i25's) connected that way.

The subs are connected only to the DRPA .....DRPA Low Outs > to Full Range input on back of each sub,
The Mains are connected to the QSC power amp, and the DRPA High Outputs> to the inputs on the QSC power amp.
The Mixer output > to the DRPA inputs.

If I didn't have or utilize the DRPA in my PA system then I would understand your response a little better, as then I would just connect the \"Mixer OUT\" into the Mackie Sub \"Full Range Inputs\" and use the built in crossover in the Mackie subs to pass the Mid/High Frequencies to the EV i25's or Yamaha SM15V, But that is not how I am connected currently. Since the Mixer Output is going to the DRPA input, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that with my 2x4 Crossover configuration that the DRPA 'Low Output\" was sending Lows to subs and the DRPA 'High Output' was sending the Mid/highs to my Mains. So I would think I would need to set the High Pass filter settings for Frequency, Filter Type, and Gain for my setup?

I am also still confused as to the difference between the (L) low pass filters settings on page 1 and page 2 inside the DRPA. The DRPA manual states \"For each Low Pass filter there are two parameters, \"for each High Pass filter there are three parameters. So I assume page 1 of the (L) is actually a high Pass filter parameter/setting for the 'Low output' on the back of the DRPA since there are three parameters to set, while page 2 is the Low Pass filter?

So I think you are telling me to set up the (L) Low crossover parameters on page 2 inside the DRPA like this below. However I am still not sure what parameters I should use in the Driverack PA for the (H) High pass filter settings for the High outputs on the DRPA?

XOVER settings for EV i25's mains with Mackie Subs:
Low pass filter page 1 : 'OUT' for Freq ,,,,, LR24 .....0db (not sure if this is correct)
Low pass filer page 2 : 100Hz ......LR24
High pass filter: ??Hz ..??Type...0db (Not sure what I set here)

Xover settings for Yamaha SM15V as mains with Mackie Subs:
Low pass filter page 1 : 'OUT' for Freq,,,,, LR24 .....0db (not sure if this is correct)
Low pass filer page 2 : 118hz ......LR24
High pass filter: ??Hz ...??Type ...0db (Not sure what I set here)

Trying my best not to ramble and make to long of a post, but I am desperately trying to understand all this all and educate myself and perhaps other who may read this post and your responses. Thanks much for any further clarification you can provide.

Dra

A picture is worth a thousand words.
Download the Driveware GUI. Click on the \"DriveRack Training Modules\" link above. Look under Software. Then, just so you'll be totally up to date, download the Firmware 260 updater.

Run the Driveware and open \"install\" the 260.
Double click the image of the 260.
click on the Wizard box and select \"Custom\" for all speakers and amps.
Load the configuration.
Double click the cross-over box \"X\".
Move the sliders and see what they do. :idea: :idea: :idea:
The light bulb should be going on in your head.


Do this and come back with more questions.

DRA

Gadget

I don't have my DRPA here right now so I can't give you button by button crossover setup instructions...
Note:
The HI outputs of the DRPA have no lopass filters (the highest frequency you want the speakers to go). That is to say that we are allowing the speakers to reproduce whatever they can...the same is true for the \"hipass\" outputs of the SWA1501...

The 2X3 setup we are using utilizes the hi and lo outs on the DRPA only, and only the left MONO out. That output has a variable hipass (the LOWEST frequency we want the subs to be able to reproduce), and a variable lopass...this is the frequency we want to set that transitions to the tops ( the Yamaha's or the EV's ).

Your sub states in the spec's that the frequency response is 36hz - 120hz...that means that the hipass is set @ 36 hz, and the lopass at 120hz.. that means the sub rolls off at a steep rate below 36 hz (most likely 18 db/octave ) no matter WHAT YOU SEND the sub out of the DRPA it WILL NOT reproduce anything below the HPF...

Likewise the sub has an LPF that is set @ 120 hz.. I realize that the inputs say full range but again the subs WILL NOT reproduce ANYTHING above 120hz and it's rolloff of 12 db per octave. (which by the way isn't an overly popular crossover slope...and is typically found in only cheaper speakers)So, if you set the DRPA HPF @ 130 hz... the subs filter won't let anything above 120 hz through.. so you must choose a lopass frequency below this point.. ok? Page 4 of your manual describes the LIMITER that is built into the sub which is NOT defeatable (you can't turn it off).

Now apply this to the DRPA and see if you can't use what DRA suggested in the GUI and also view the interactive tutorial here:
http://www.driverack.com/drug/view_thre ... d_id=41950

Good luck
gadget

Gadget

Hey I just went and did the DRPA interactive tutorial and it is very helpful...

Note the upper left hand corner of the screen when you are in the crossover section that there is a H M L... this corresponds to the Hi Mid and Low outputs of the crossover... we will only be using the H and L... when the L is highlighted there are 2 pages, Lo pass, and Hi pass...After setting the H and L pass.. (using the rotary encoder) successive presses of the page button till you get to the H outputs will reveal that there is only a hipass filter and that reguardless of what crossover type you choose the H outs will always be active...set the lopass here as we have described above..

Again do the interactive guide.. it makes things so much easier...

Gadget

Dra

Gadget, did you notice my post on the tutorial post? All I was ever able to get to happen was text commands and descriptions of the tutorial.

DRA

Gadget

Hmmm ya, thought I PM'ed you about it... Try downloading it unzip the shockwave flash and XLM document then double click the firefox document...

See if that doesn't work.. I know it's the firefox document that fires up the tutorial. They are working on moving it to the new site... but without some of the bells and whistles...

G

iwanarock

Gadget & DRA thanks again for your assistance.

I have downloaded both the Driveware 260 GUI and the DRPA tutorial and have spent a lot of time with each of them. I even went back to tutorials and re-read a few post and the light bulb is starting to go on in my head a little bit anyway.

Gadget I knew the full range inputs on my subs would still not reproduce ANYTHING above 120hz. I understand that inputs are called that just so the subs can use the built-in cross over to pass frequencies above 120Hz thru the Hi-Pass outputs to full range speakers if connected that way. So i get that.

What I have decide to do is use the Wizard and input my configuration in the driveware GUI and use the crossover settings that produces. They are close to what you told me to do anyway. I may modify them slightly but I will use that as a starting point so I can get my gain structure done.

I will say the DRPA interactive tutorial is pretty cool and it actually opened up a few more questions for me about using the Mid OUT's on the driverack as full range outputs and perhaps driving my stage monitors off of them. But I think I will save that for another post. Let me get the gain structure set up first.

Sorry I am a little slow but I am really trying to absorb and learn as much of this as i can. I am willing to learn and read and I think I am starting to get the concepts down. I will be back once I try the gain structure and see what results i achieve. Thanks again.

iwanarock

OK I have done the gain structure for my Practice/small venue set up with the QSC PLX 3402 driving the Yamaha SM15V as mains. I have to say it makes a world of difference!! I will go on and save another new program and do my main setup next with the EV Force i25's as mains powered by the QSC, then I will do a gain structure for my crown xls802 driving me SM15V's (not thru the DRPA) when used as stage monitors. But the mixer and the QSC amp are done so the rest should be easy.

It does bring up an additional question I have. What should be used most often to control the individual channel volumes of my mixer input channels in a live band situation?

Since with the Gain structure, I set the Channel fader to 0db and used the gain control on the channel to raise the level of pink noise to occasionally clip and then backed down off of that and then went onto to raise the Master ST OUT fader until occasionally clipping and then backed down the ST out fader off of that. I am wonder in what order should I use the Channel faders, gain controls and ST Out fader as a means for increasing/decreasing volume.

For example if I have my lead vocalist going into channel 1 and kick drum in channel 2, should I always set the channel 1&2 input faders to 0db, leave the ST OUT Fader at the point just below clipping and use the gain control to raise and lower the volume of each of the channel inputs?

Or should I leave channel faders at 0db and use the gain control primarily as the means to increase/decrease volume and use the ST out fader as the second means to increase/decrease volume while recognizing the ST out fader will increase the volume of all of the channel inputs?

Is there a best or breed approach as to the order of use of the channel faders, channel gains controls and ST Out faders as a means to increase/decrease the volume?

Gadget

industrywide (except me ) start out with your Drums on channel 1.. kick..snr..etc, instruments then vocals, supposedly gets the vocals in front of you... I don't know I'm so old I started doing this before there WERE faders. Old dogs and all...
Start out with the channel fader @ unity '0'... thats the design center, (best signal to noise ratio) use the input gain control to get the volume you want out of that given channel, then move on to the next.. and so on, then use your faders to control your mix.. unless you have VCA's then you can assign whole groups of channels to a single fader...

Gadget