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xover settings

seano321seano321 Posts: 10
edited March 2008 in PA General Discussion
Hi everyone, first post so please be gentle with me, looking for help with my current 3 way set up am running bass, adlib audio aa15 x2 400w 40-200hz,
mids, wharfedale lx15 x2 400w 40-20000hz, and tops, wharfedale lx15 x2 400w 40-20000hz, bins powered by crown xs900 600w per side @ 8 ohms, mids powered by crown xs 900 600w per side @ 8 ohms, tops powered by crown xs700 450 a side @ 8ohms, was wondering what would be the best xover frequencies, and i assume 2x6 would be best set up thanks
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Comments

  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    2 x 5 or 2 x 6, either is fine.

    You list the same cabs for mid's and hi's. Or are you bi-amping the same 2 cabs?

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    How about some model numbers and links so we can see these cabs..That sub dose not exist in as far as Google is concerned. Also application/purpose of the system
    gadget
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    Hi guys thanks for quick response, please find links below, subs are aa15hl4, bout halfway down list

    http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Default.as ... 5&IdLang=1

    http://www.adlibaudio.co.uk/audio/aarange.php

    am running two seperate sets of the same cabs for tops and mids

    system is driving a 4 piece celtic rock band, so tight and punchy sound rather than booming bass really

    thanks
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Man I hate companies like that! Absolutely USELESS information! Those AA15HL4 have NO useful information available that I could find...I can ASSUME that they are 8 ohms, but that would make a ASS of me AND you...So MORE info please... are you wanting to run stereo? Mono? If the subs are 8 ohms then you would be best to run bridged. That will give you about double the power or 1200 watts to each speaker... If they are 4 ohms, you will need to run stereo/parallel mono.

    As for the tops, if your going to run stereo we run into the same problem... limited power, but with 4, 8ohm speaker ( unless you have the 4 ohm models...see what I mean about information.. it's all relevant to the process...) the only option is stereo, however the crossover point could be changed depending on power available.

    So finish filling in the information and we'll go from there...

    Gadget
  • Fanman20Fanman20 Posts: 223
    Hi
    reading between the lines....
    mids, wharfedale lx15 x2 400w 40-20000hz, and tops, wharfedale lx15 x2 400w 40-20000hz,
    mids powered by crown xs 900 600w per side @ 8 ohms, tops powered by crown xs700 450 a side @ 8ohms,
    best xover frequencies, and i assume 2x6 would be best set up

    seano321 are you thinking of running 1 x wharfedale per side for mids and 1 x wharfedale per side for tops???

    eg
    DRPA mid left out to 1 x wharfedale
    DRPA mid right out to 1x wharfedale
    DRPA tops left out to 1 x wharfedale
    DRPA tops right out to 1 x wharfedale

    If so we need to talk more..... :?

    More info on how you intend to wire it would be nice

    Mark

    http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Default.as ... 8&IDLang=1
    Dra I don't think that they have bi amp capacity!
    speakonâ„¢ NL4 type 2
    paralle with input connector yes
    hi pass out connector: no
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    :shock: Input connector only on those speakers...never even THOUGHT to look there...all I can say is if that info is correct...your in way over your head here.. :roll:
  • Fanman20Fanman20 Posts: 223
    seano321

    We can talk you though the best set up but need lots more info on your set up

    There appears to be two models
    GENERAL INFO
    System type 15� 2-way passive
    Frequency response +/- 3db 40-20kHz
    Sensitivity (db 1w@1m) 98dB
    System impedance 4 ohms / 8 ohms (two models)
    System FB 40Hz
    Maximum SPL Peak dB 130dB
    POWER HANDLING (Watts)
    Continous RMS 400
    Program 800
    Peak 1600

    Do you have the 4 or 8 ohm model????



    Mark
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    Hi guys gonna try and answer all questions with this post

    Both sets of Wharfedales are 4 ohm
    yes was thinking of running one mid and one top on each side, one amp running two bins,one running two mids and one running two tops
    adlib audio bins are 8ohm
    wharfedales have a link and an input
  • Fanman20Fanman20 Posts: 223
    Hi
    What do you mean by
    wharfedales have a link and an input

    Please tell us step by step how you are going to wire the DRPA to the amps to the speakers.

    This is very important because I don't think what you are planning will work.

    Mark

    Known facts
    4 x Wharfdales
    Both sets of Wharfedales are 4 ohm
    2 x aa subs
    adlib audio bins are 8ohm
    2 x crown xs900
    crown xs900 600w per side @ 8 ohms
    1 x crown xs700
    crown xs700 450 a side @ 8ohms
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    main left and right outs from mixer to left and right input on driverack
    left and right low on dbx to left and right on xs900
    left and right mid on dbx to left and right on second xs900
    left and right hi on dbx to left and right on xs700

    then send leads from amps to corresponding speakers

    All amps currently running in stereo
  • Fanman20Fanman20 Posts: 223
    I thought that was what you were going to do
    Sorry but It won't work.

    The best setup (with the knowledge you have) is a 2 way setup

    Will post how later, unless the boys get in first
    Mark
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    in what way wont it work?
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Well, it will work. But why? We assume (again) that you are not connecting directly to the speaker leads (disconnecting the internal x-over). By running through the int x-over you are loosing ALL the benefit doing what you are doing, plus running the DRPA x-over on top of the passive x-over will create weirdness. You can't run the horns lower than the onboards are set up for, nor the mids higher than they're set for, so you're stuck right on top. You also are still \"eating\" power in the x-over.
    You need to do one of two things.
    1) Run the Cab's just like they are with their internal x-overs. Either all on one amp or 2 each on the 2 amps.
    2) Pull the int x-overs, make cover plates with 4-pole speakons for biamping.

    DRA
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    Thanks Dra for that, how would you suggest running the system two way then with just one set of wharfedales and the bins with the two xs900's
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    I think it's a matter of semantics, but who knows...Perhaps he wants to run two fullrange tops off the HI outs, and two full range tops out of the mid outs, and the subs out of the low outs, but with the amp configuration that makes no sense either... what you SHOULD be doing is BIAMPIMG the tops, but they don't have NL4 connectors for that purpose, only full range inputs, and a throughput if I read this correctly...again CRAPPY information from the MFG.

    If your suggestion that you run 1 pair of fullrange tops as mids off one amp and the other set of fullrange tops off the other amp as hi outs... were in a lot of trouble here...that seems to be what your telling us, that you want to split the signal into lo mid and hi frequencies and have one set do ONLY midrange sound, and one set do ONLY hi frequency sound... it doesn't work like that...Your best bet is to just run a 2X3 and feed both sets of tops off the one 900 as a 2 ohm stereo setup Hi outs from the DRPA to the XS 900 A output to one daisy chain pair, and B output to the other...but again, we still don''t have enough info. DO THE SPEAKERS HAVE A PARALLELING OUTPUT? If not you will have make up a jack panel at the amp rack with wires that are tied together at the binding posts...2 speakers per output. I hope you have good power because if your running @ 120 volts those 2 amps could be drawing nearly 40 AMPS of current!

    What we need from you is to understand EXACTLY how you are hooking up those things...a sentence or two just isn't doing it here... You seem to be saying that a fullrange speaker can serve as ONLY a midrange.. or ONLY a tweeter and if thats the case you really don't have a clue whats going on here...

    Gadget
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    If there is a chance that you would ever use all 4 tops (for center fills for example), I'd do this...

    Set up a 2 x 5 (stereo in, stereo Hi & Mid outs, plus mono sub)
    NOTE: The mid outs are only used if you wish to add the 2nd set and want a bit of control over them (PEQ, band-width filters, limiting, output gain, etc). The Mid x-over section typically would be set to match the Hi section or possibly crossed higher for more upper range coverage if needed, etc, etc. If you don't need them, don't connect them.

    Subs: Bridged XS900
    HPF 40 - 45 hz @ BW18
    LPF 100 - 120 hz @ LR24

    Mids (optional tops): XS700(?) stereo
    HPF 100 - 120 hz @ LR24
    LPF - 18K (or out) @ BW12

    Hi's (Main tops): XS900 stereo
    HPF 100 - 120 hz @ LR24

    DRA
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    I think What gadget was saying bout using one amp for tops and mids is closest to getting what i want from the system, is this the correct lead that i would need for the job http://www.juno.co.uk/covers/300026-01-front.htm
    from the dbx to each channel of the xs900, and would i then link the the 2 mids with each other and the two tops with each other using the parallell inputs on the wharfedales and if so what fequencies am i best splittin them at, oh and am i running the bass bin amp bridged mono and linking the speakers, sorry for all the questions
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Are you going to bi-amp? You keep saying link the mids and link the highs.

    To parallel the input (same signal to both sides of the amp) just plug into channel 1 as usual and jump out of channel 1 into channel 2 with a short mic cable. No need to buy a special cable.

    DRA
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    speakers are not biampable, i thought gadget was saying run the mids into one side of the amp and run the tops into the other
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Well, it will work. But why? We assume (again) that you are not connecting directly to the speaker leads (disconnecting the internal x-over). By running through the int x-over you are loosing ALL the benefit doing what you are doing, plus running the DRPA x-over on top of the passive x-over will create weirdness. You can't run the horns lower than the onboards are set up for, nor the mids higher than they're set for, so you're stuck right on top. You also are still \"eating\" power in the x-over.
    You need to do one of two things.
    1) Run the Cab's just like they are with their internal x-overs. Either all on one amp or 2 each on the 2 amps.
    2) Pull the int x-overs, make cover plates with 4-pole speakons for biamping.

    This is what Gadget was saying.

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    YOU WILL NOT BE DOING ANY BI-AMPING ON THOSE TOPS...you will be running them FULL RANGE...lets DROP the bi-amp talk.. it's NOT Germain to this setup!!!! you will be running a stereo fullrange setup with mono subs.

    As for the \"Y\" input ....Why even do that? Send L/R out of the mixer to the DRPA, Set up a 2X3 send the left hi out of the DRPA to input (1) of the XS 900, send the right channel out of the DRPA to input (2) of the XS 900. this will then be considered a stereo full range 2 ohm configuration which this amp can do if NOT OVERDRIVEN!!!!!GAIN STRUCTURE HERE IS PARAMOUNT!!!!!

    Get 4 each NL4 pannel Jacks:
    http://www.fullcompass.com/product/297822.html
    and a few feet of wire...connect channel (1) (crown amp) red binding post to two of the Pannel jacks on pins 1+ the Channel (1) Black binding posts to the same NL4 on pins 1-. This then is a parallel connection, so two 15X2 speakers will be run off these 2 jacks and can be run using readily available speaker cables..

    The channel (2) binding posts will be routed in the same way to the other 2 NL4 jacks to run the other two 15X2 tops, again using pins 1+ AND 1- respectively just like we did above...Now we have the tops run off the ONE xs 900

    The other XS 900, you will slide the Normal/Bridged switch between the 2 Neutrik connectors down to bridge position. Plug the MONO (L) output of the DRPA into the #1 input of the amp(although the amp parallels the input in bridged mon anyway...)The BEST way to do this is to get 2 more of the( http://www.fullcompass.com/product/297822.html) and wire BOTH NL4 plugs to the RED terminals... Channel (1) binding post to BOTH NL4 jacks PIN1+, and BOTH NL4 pins 1- to the channel(2) binding post....(this is important!!!!! make sure you match the polarity to insure all speakers are working TOGETHER... not fighting each other) this will then have both subs receiving the SAME amount of signal, jumping from one speaker to the other is a good way to FRY the first speaker in the chain!!!!!

    So if the mixer is then left with all channel strip PAN controls centered, each speaker will receive a summed mono signal anyway...AND if you are running stereo effects like reverb, and returned on a stereo channel, or to two PANNED channels those effects will be in stereo and add some life to the mix. Again, this would be considered a parallel bridged MONO setup @ 4 ohms... your amp can do this but AGAIN....GAIN STRUCTURE IS PARAMOUNT, and DO NOT OVERDRIVE THE AMPS!!!!!

    gadget
  • Fanman20Fanman20 Posts: 223
    Wow seano321

    I posted this just before going to bed...
    The best setup (with the knowledge you have) is a 2 way setup

    Will post how later, unless the boys get in first

    A few hour later, (10 posts later) and you have an answer. I missed all the fun

    (I need all the beauty sleep I can get)

    seano321
    Do you understand why it won't work????

    It won't work acoustically (it will work electronically but will sound very bad) That’s the big difference.


    Mark
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Fanman, You snooze, you lose.



    321, Do you understand?


    DRA
  • seano321seano321 Posts: 10
    Because the xs900 is already in the driverack will that do the gain structure automatically when selected
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Yes and no.

    The wizard will recommend where to set the x-over gains and the amp attentuators. However, it is preferred that you follow the procedure detailed in the welcome area. It will be a great learning experience to do it manually and compare what it says with what the real world (you) says.

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    edited March 2008
    Alright just a darn minute... the answer here is HELL NO! Ok, well I guess no would suffice but the amps are only 1 piece of a big puzzle that requires each piece to be in place and oriented properly for the whole thing to come together! In a perfect world, with a perfect matched setup that might be possible, but when using multiple speakers with odd loads and multiple brands... no. Sure you can set the amps attenuator at the \"sensitivity\" point, but that then requires compromises at other points in the signal chain that could cause problems... not to mention simplicity of turning a knob versus working within the digital domain with meters who's balistics (accuracy/speed of presentation... in short the event happens faster than the meter can display it so it's accuracy is suspect) are questionable... For the purposes of the general beginner status of the audience it would be best to simplify the procedure to use the amp attenuators to set the gain structure....when the end user gets to the point they can cogently understand the tradeoffs and the possible implications of the input sensitivity method then they are beyond the scope of this forum, and are unlikely to come here for such answers....

    Gadget

    Seano.,,, there are no shortcuts here... you need to do the reading and get up to speed on what you don't know here...I know they portray the Driverack as a \"hook it up and the rest is instantaneous and automatic\"... it ain't so!
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Now Gadget, there are short cuts, but most of the time you will see a sign that says,\"You should have bought a squirrel\", as you drive off the cliff. :wink: Then it's too late to go the right way.

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    So does this mean the Confucius will start making daily visits to the site to leave \"droppings\" of wisdom for us to ponder? :lol:
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Confuse us say, \"At least take some squirrel feed and give some to the furry little darlings on your way.\"

    DRA
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    boy.. it's gettin pretty DEEP in here...Fanman you got any muckalucks(sp?)?were gonna need em... :roll:
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