Input Reading on DRPA during Gain Staging

WitchsMark

I have followed the Gain Staging as discussed here. My problem is I am plenty loud, as loud as I want to be anyways, however the Input Meters on my DRPA just register the 2 bottom LEDS and thats it. Is this ok?? I have been coached and tutored through this whole thing multiple times as you all know, and I appreciate all of the patience from you all. I just have this tremendous feeling [& my gut is usually correct] that I am not even touching the tip of the iceberg of the performance I could be getting out of my system.

Fanman20

Hi WitchsMark

The inputs dbu LED's are
+20
+15
+10
+5
0
-30

Therefore if you

just register the 2 bottom LEDS and thats it. Is this ok??

Yes that's OK
This indicates that you are peaking at 0 db (Which your desk should also be peaking at.)

(Digital devises should never clip)

Recheck your gain structure (as per the manual) and as long as your amps are not peaking all is good

What do you mean by

that I am not even touching the tip of the iceberg of the performance I could be getting out of my system.

No load enough?
Sound is poor?
Too thin?

Mark

WitchsMark

My Amp is not clipping, so that would make the -30led being a solid green and none of the LEDs above it lighting up at all OK, thats a relief, I thought for sure something wasn't right. As far as the other comment about not getting the performance I can... thats just an assumption. Nothing really sounds that bad, and I am loud enough for our little practice room. Originally after doing the Inside AutoEQ method and getting the GEQ as flat as I could the sound was quite thin... but the sound was literally just the vocals, because we don't use this system to DJ with it is only used for band performance, so it is hard to adjust using a CD because by the time you get it sounding good from pre-recorded music the live band sounds like $hit. Unfortunately, it isn't easy for me to have the band play without me [guitar player] or set the system while I am playing guitar, let alone setting up the system to sound good in a little 20 x 10 room and expecting it to sound good when we play in an open field somewhere [most all of our gigs are outside venues]. I am just frustrated with the constant rigging of this system and spending the last 2 weeks trying to create a homemade Bi-Amp/Tri-Amp rig, that I am not so sure is even gonna make such a huge difference, because I have never got to even hear the difference it can make with my own 2 ears. I went to my local Guitar Center to see if they could show me the difference in sounds from Bi-Amp/Tri-Amp system as opposed to a full range system and they said \"[little chuckle] ohh no we don't use those setups here, everything we do is Full Range. It's a little too time consuming to setup any other way\" So ultimately, I am quite discouraged because I put so much effort into building this Bi/Triamping contraption, tied up poor Gadget on the phone for 2hrs one day, and now instead of butchering my 4 NL2 Speakon cables to create 2 NL4 cables I just decided to stick with a 1X2 setup in rehearsal [running SP2's full range w/ no X-over] and a 1x3 setup for live performance [throwing the PV118 subs in the mix]. One day in the future I will tackle the Bi/Tri amping monster again, atleast now I am half way there and have already done the hard part of creating the custom Panel Jack... until then I just wish I could hire someone to come out to a gig and just set this thing up for us, so I could just concentrate on making music. I am majorly lacking in the patience and the experience, but oh well enough of my whining.

Gadget

too bad... the difference is MAJOR...like almost 1/3 louder and MUCH more controllable in the end...I suspected you might be struggling with the procedure.. although it's not easy once done it's a HUGE difference...The GC guy's are CLUELESS...although it is too time consuming for their mentality...You could have taken those connectors and the diagrams I sent and gone to GC's tech or some other tech for that matter, and he could have had you up and running in a few minutes...The setup part is the tough part but if you follow the step by step instructions in the welcome section you could very well be on your way to a great sounding outdoor system...
Gadget

WitchsMark

When using an Active X-over, what becomes of the Passive X-over built into the Speakers??

Gadget

It is bypassed...internally...

G
P.S. I even provided a \"get started\" Bi-amp setup for those speakers...even IF they weren't set up for it...in the Read me first section...FAQ's...crossover points and all...

WitchsMark

I hear you Gadget. AArrggghhhh I just can't leave well enough alone. I don't have band rehearsal again until next Tuesday so that gives me enough time to just jump off the cliff and do it. Cross your fingers for me all, maybe a little prayer too.

WitchsMark

One other thing? When choosing the High Speakers in the Setup menu, why would I not choose Custom Bi-AMP instead of Custom Passive?? Again I have Peavey SP2's.

Gadget

Good... your learning.. and thinking.. Yes that is what you would do.. Biamp passive...

Good luck..

Gadget

WitchsMark

Sorry Gadget, you replied Biamp Passive - Would I choose Custom Bi-Amp or Custom Passive??

Gadget

Custom bi-amp...Custom passive would use the INTERNAL crossover in each speaker...

G

WitchsMark

Ok.... I bit the bullet and took my 4- NL2 Speakon cables and rewired them so that now I have 2- NL4 cables for Bi-Amping. I have an XLR coming out of the Left/High of the DRPA into Input 1 QSC850 which is in Parallel Mode, and I have an XLR coming out of the Left/Mono/Low of the DRPA and into Input 1 of the EP2500. I plugged in the Homemade Panel Jack[Highs Stereo to QSC850 & Lows Mono Bridged to EP2500]. Obviously from the Panel I have run my homemade NL4 cables to Bi-Amp Speakon jack on each SP2. I turned everything on and setup the DRPA Mono, Stereo Linked, Custom-BiAmp for High, Sub=None, it asked for 2 amps which are both set to Custom. I then did a Gain Staging on the Amps. The good news is I am getting music through the system and both AMPs are showing signal going through them. THe setup is showing a 1x4. I went into the X-over and set the Lows HPF @ 50Hz BW18, LPF @ 1.60KHz LR24, and the High @ 1.70 LR24. All of these settings are per Gadgets FAQ paper. Tomorrow I will balance the sound and do an Indoor AutoEQ, as for right now that process is a little too noisy for 11:30PM. I have good expectations that after I do the AutoEQ and do a little tweaking with the PEQ that this will pull everything together, because right now everything sounds very very weak... no punch, loud highs, low mids. I will work with it tomorrow and let you know what became of it all. Thanks for the support so far, I'm almost there.

Gadget

That is the most confusing post I have read in a while...please try and make sense of it for me because it doesn't... Mono.. stereo... I'm lost....Are you Bi-amping or not? you have subs as well?

G

WitchsMark

Overall I my setup is Mixer - DRPA - EP2500 - QSC850 - SP2s. No Subs involved at all. I am running out of Mixer Mono to DRPA Left/Mono Input. From the DRPA running out Left [High Output], and out Low/Mono [Low Output].

I setup my Panel Jack and wiring from the QSC850 and EP2500 to the Panel jack according to the drawings you sent me. So I ended up wiring the QSC850 Outputs to the Panel Jack as Stereo [which I set the QSC850 to Parallel Mode so I only have Input 1 being used that goes out Channel A & B independently]. I know that because I am running out of the Mixer Mono there is no reason for me to run stereo with anything after that, but I following the only source I had to wire the setup and you told me to wire it up Stereo so I did. I think the main reason I did it this way was so that I wasn't running the QSC850 in Bridged Mode sending all that Summed power to the Horns... should I change this to Bridged instead?? or does it really matter??

Yes I am definitely Bi-Amping the SP2s. I have 2 4wire Speakon cables going from the Panel Jack to the BiAmp Input in each SP2.

No Subs just the SP2s.

Is this a little clearer?? Is this setup OK so far??

Gadget

Yes, just make sure you are in the parallel mono mode on the 850 amp then the A input will feed both outputs as you said...then the 850 feeds both 2+(A channel) and 2-(B channel) and the Bridged mono 2500 would feed both 1+, and 1- off the two red posts with the red - to the 1- pins on the speakons...

As you said (L) hi out to the 850, (L) mono low out to the 2500...


set a custom 2X3 crossover and follow the directions in the read me first post...
G

WitchsMark

Gadget, I got everything going good on the system Biamped.... very happy, but now I am fighting with the Auto EQ. I have everything setup for Indoor EQ. Pretty much things aren't too far off, not flat across the board but a few +/-6 at the extremes, except for where I did the PEQ#1 High Shelf as you specified @ 2.75Khz with a slope of 6db and gain of 7.5. Right in that area I am getting a 2.5Khz +12db and 4.0Khz -12db. As you can see it seems where I placed that High Shelf it jumps from +12 down to -12 within a few notches. I have tried PEQing it out but to no avail... it just won't go away. What can I do about this??

Gadget

Are you sure the PEQ's are TURNED ON? They need to be if your going to get anything from them... sounds like they are not...because if they were they would make a difference...
G

WitchsMark

There both on, in fact I already used the LowPEQ to correct a dip in the 475Hz range. It seems as though the the HighPEQ isn't responding very well though. It is on though, thats how I set the Shelf as per your instructions for the CD Horn. Maybe I should reset everything and then do an AuotEQ. From there I can post what the GEQ put out and then I can get suggestions from there. What do u think??

Gadget

Ya do the auto Eq.. I bet that is an anomaly... are you doing the indoor method as specified? How far is the mic off the floor? what is the floors surface? be specific on how your doing the auto eq...
gadget

WitchsMark

I am doing the Indoor Method as specified. I will get a picture of what the setup for the AutoEQ looks like and e-mail it to ya so you can physically see how far the MIC is and the angle of the Amp etc. I am placing the RTA like a fraction off of a concrete floor, I would say less than 1/8\" but not touching the floor facing straight down. I roll back the carpet to expose bare concrete. I have one SP2 plugged in and down on the floor tilted forward so that the Horn and Speaker are angled down at close to 45degrees. I place the RTA about 2.5 to 3' in front of the SP2 to what looks like the RTA would pickup the HOrn and Speaker right in the middle where the 2 would come together. I then begin the DRPA procedure and set Response to Flat(0) and Precision to Hi. I set the Pink Noise Level to about -12 (which is very loud actually leaves my ears ringing sometimes) which the Input Meter on the DRPA begins to clip if I go above that. Thats pretty much it. Of course I have the X-over section set to your recommendations, but other than that there is nothing else effecting the signal.

Gadget

Ok.. sounds good...take out the PEQ's and see what you get.
G

WitchsMark

Ok turned off both PEQs and here is the result:

31.5 = +6
40.0 = +6
50.0 = +6
63.0 = -1.5
80.0 = -1.5
100 = +.5
125 = -2.0
160 = -3.0
200 = -1.5
250 = -5.0
315 = +3.0
400 = -12
500 = -12
630 = +6
800 = -10.5
1.0k = -4.0
1.25 = +.5
1.6 = -3.5
2.0 = +6
2.5 = +3.0
3.15 = -5
4.0 = -2.5
5.0 = +3.5
6.3 = +2.0
8.0 = 0
10.0 = +3.0
12.5 = +7.0
16.0 = +10.5

Gadget

do you have a place where you could do an outdoor away from all surfaces Auto EQ? If so, place mic about 4-6 feet out aimed between the woofer and horn and Re-auto EQ

If not do you have a place where you can place a speaker against a wall bu away from a corner? For this test place the speaker against a wall on the floor on a piece of carpet... place the mic about 2 feet out on axis between the horn and woofer and redo the auto eq show the curve...

That 250 , 400 and 500 hz room resonances...

The high stuff is the the CD horn (needs it)EQ and the 2k area a horn resonance...

well see when you get a different Auto EQ

Gadget P.S. send those pics of the process please...

WitchsMark

This one I tilted the Speaker up a little and placed the RTA about 5 feet in front:

31.5 = +5
40.0 = +5
50.0 = +5
63.0 = +4
80.0 = -1.5
100 = +1
125 = +.5
160 = -6
200 = +2
250 = -4.5
315 = +2
400 = -11
500 = -4.5
630 = 0
800 = -6.5
1.0k = -2.5
1.25 = 0
1.6 = -3.5
2.0 = +2.5
2.5 = +2.5
3.15 = -4.5
4.0 = 0
5.0 = +.5
6.3 = -.5
8.0 = +3.5
10.0 = +1
12.5 = +3.5
16.0 = +7.5

Seems its getting a little better

Gadget

5 feet is too far away... I said 2 feet... did you put the carpet back down? You need to do that if you didn't. If you have some soft furniture you could surround the setup with that would help. Set the speaker FLAT on the floor...The idea here is to eliminate any hard..reflective surfaces from affecting the process... thats why 5 feet is too much, we want to have ALL direct sound and NO reflected sound... .. I want the mic to hear ONLY the speakers direct sound.

Note the 200 and 500 hz differences ... the 400 hz is still a room mode I believe try a little less volume also to NOT excite the room so much... I bet that room is pretty square with even dimensions... 10 X12... 8 X 10 ... 14 X 16 etc... that is what causes room modes...
G

WitchsMark

The room is like 20 x 10, but it is filled with gear except for a small like 6x6 area in the center of the room. What is an acceptable +/- for the Frequencies?? Last night I putzed around and got a pretty good response finally where my worst Valley was at 250Hz -4.5, but I got alot of the other Frequencies especially around the higher end to go to like -.5. It's definitely the flatest I've gotten the system so far. I will go ahead and get some cushions and what not and surround the testing setup, stand the SP2 normal and then take another reading as you mentioned with the MIC at 2' and not quite as loud and see what I get. I have band practice tonight so I may not get to it till tomorrow, but regardless I will let you know how it went. Oh yeah, and those first 3 frequencies are OK where there at right, considering I have the Crossover HPF set at 50HZ??

Gadget

I don't understand...
Oh yeah, and those first 3 frequencies are OK where there at right, considering I have the Crossover HPF set at 50HZ??

Gadget
P.S. that 250 hz is a room resonance I bet...

WitchsMark

I meant 31.5Hz, 40Hz and 50Hz being at +5. I figured these were ok there because my X-Over is set to cut everything off below 50Hz, the system must be adding these because they are not there for the most part. Regardless, I ended up having band practice tonight and everyone was raving about how awesome the system sounded, very clear and pronounced, even my wife(Keyboard player) noticed and thought it sounded awesome, and she never notices anything audio wise. I recorded that setup to slot 10 and will leave it alone. I will retake another with the cushion setup tomorrow to see if I can get it even flatter, and save it to another slot completely just in case I for some reason can't get things sounding better than they already do I will always have slot 10 to go back too. April 6th I am taking everything to my Moms house where she has an open field behind her house. Here I will take an AutoEQ using the Outside method. This is also going to give me a chance to run my Subs, Tri-AMP, and run all the instruments including the Drums through the Mixer to see what I can get out of it before we play any more shows. Till now we have never Mic'd the Kick and Snare or ran the Bass through the system. I hope it works out and sounds good. Until then like I said I will try the cushion method of indoor EQ and let you know what I get. Thanks sooo much for talking me into the Biamping, so far so good and I can't wait to TriAmp.

Gadget

DON\"T take the subs outdoors...Do a fullrange setup outdoors...Then we will set up the subs...the Auto EQ doesn't do a very good job below 170 hz. so that should be done by ear... It simply involves setting the Xover and levels..(gain structure)

Yes the Driverack IGNORES (pretty much those first 4 frequencies) those frequencies that the speaker can't reproduce..even with the mic pointed at the floor to reduce the reflected energy that arrives and cancels out.. the room still sets up modes which will show up... see the \"START HERE\" post and find the \"room mode calculator\" and enter the dimensions of the room into the boxes and then see what frequencies are 1st second third and fourth in the long, short and vertical axis...

I'm glad you are experiencing the success.. now wait till you go outdoors... you won't believe the performance of a bi-tri-amped system!
Those things will ROCK!
gadget

WitchsMark

I just re-read your AutoEQ Paper and I think I have been screwing up slightly. After I have been taking an initial EQ and then adjusting the PEQ, I have not been clearing/flattening the GEQ before taking another reading, I have just been re-auto eqing... is this gonna make a difference??

Gadget

No...because the auto EQ will redo each and every filter(fader) anyway... the things you have been doing wrong are \"too loud\" (setting up room modes) and having the mic too far away...

Do the outdoor really loud, do the indoor method quieter to not excite the room...because modes will set up and the mic WILL hear them...
gadget