Speaker Upgrade

dangr

Hey fellas,
My current FOH bar band setup is:
QSC 2450 to 2 Peavey 118 subs with UPGRADED from 400 watts program @8ohms to new 1000 watts program 4 ohms drivers.
QSC 1850 to 2 JBL JRX 125's(quasi 3 way 2x15 boxes) lower 15 crossed stock @250Hz and below.
DRPA
Carvin C1644 Mixer
I have enough low freq. for my purposes now to free up the JBL'S to 2 way w/the 15's in parallel.
About to install the following xovers in JBL'S
\"THE ... IS A 2.0KHZ HIGH QUALITY 2-WAY CROSSOVER WITH POWER HANDLING OF 600 WATTS RMS
VERSATILE CROSSOVER WITH THE OPTIONS OF 4 OR 8 OHMS ON THE LOW FREQUENCY
4 ATTENUATION OPTIONS OF -3DB, -6DB, -7.5DB AND/OR -3DB @ 3.5KHZ TO HELP PROVIDE A FLAT RESPONSE
FOR ALL HIGH POWER APPLICATIONS INCLUDING P.A. SYSTEMS, SOUND REINFORCEMENT, ETC.
RECOMMENDED FOR USE WITH A 1.0\" HIGH FREQUENCY DRIVER\"

I would like:
1) Suggestions on where to set the attenuation on new crossovers.
2) DRPA setting suggestions AND
Should I have any concerns about phase cancellation in the JBL boxes?
Thanx,
Dangr

Gadget

Upgraded? Are you sure? you can't just throw any speaker into a given box and expect it to work.. at least not PROPERLY...What Speaker?

Your post isn't clear what your doing with the top boxes either...why the other crossover? It doesn't make sense...

Gadget

dangr

Eminence Delta Pro 18C
18\" Pro Woofer
4 Ohms
37Hz-250Hz
500 Watts RMS
1,000 Watts Program
High 6.7mm Xmax
Works In 3.0-10.5 Cu. Ft. Vented Cabinets

I bought a pair of Beyma F-250 xovers to make JBL's 2 way. On the strong advice of others I've decided not to.

Gadget

Ya no doubt on the crossovers...'

I still think that was a mistake putting those speakers in that cab... by simply looking at the TS parameters of that woofer it wants an 8.6 cubic foot enclosure... or vented cabinet to compensate for the diminished volume...That venting is a specific diameter, and volume..

Why am I busting your hump about this? Because in the correct enclosure the speaker will not over excrude and bottom out on the magnet structure...will not tear itself apart trying to do something it wasn't designed to do.... AND will be able to reach the target FS (resonant frequency...

Further more...as an Eminence dealer....the only 1000 watt speaker in the lineup is the Kilomax...not even the Omega Pro is rated at 1000 watts...and unless you got CUSTOM built speakers they are available in 8 ohms only...I have the spec sheet here...http://www.eminence.com/pdf/deltapro-15a.pdf
and they clearly state that is an 8 ohm, 400 watt 2.5\" voice coil 42 hz woofer...that isn't much of an upgrade, and with the different TS parameters you could easily hurt that woofer...the other one would have performed better...

Seems yo are getting some bad information here...

In leu of this info .... what are your question now?

Gadget

dangr

Hey Gadget,

I didn't type those specs in. They were copied from.

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

It sez works in 3.0 to 10.5 vented cab. The pv118 is 6.7 cubic feet and vented. They were going to be used for the 1st time this Friday nite, take a look Delta Pro 18-C. If you're saying it's not a good match I won't use them.

dangr

Gadget,
I just noticed that you were looking at the spec sheet for a different driver(Delta Pro 15A). Still would like your thots on the Delta Pro 18-C in this box.
Dangr

dangr

Gadget wrote:

Further more...as an Eminence dealer....the only 1000 watt speaker in the lineup is the Kilomax...not even the Omega Pro is rated at 1000 watts...and unless you got CUSTOM built speakers they are available in 8 ohms only...I have the spec sheet here...http://www.eminence.com/pdf/deltapro-15a.pdf
and they clearly state that is an 8 ohm, 400 watt 2.5" voice coil 42 hz woofer...that isn't much of an upgrade, and with the different TS parameters you could easily hurt that woofer...the other one would have performed better...

Seems yo are getting some bad information here...

In leu of this info .... what are your question now?

Gadget

The above is bad information, but we're all human and it's no big deal. What I would bust you about is seeing that you've been on the board the past couple days and haven't responded.

Gadget

Sorry..different size.. same problem...same answer...Your still replacing a woofer MEANT to be in that cab with one that is no better in any respect..and the cabinet WASN'T designed for that speaker. But you have said you have enough bass... just be careful... you can damage those cones easier than the ones that came with the cabs.. Not that it matters but to me an upgrade would have been the Omega 18.. a very compliant driver that works well in divergent cabinets..

So we've eliminated the crossovers question... what more can I help with?Especially since I have gone on record as saying I DON\"T like JBL... and you didn't say what speakers you have (model) ... and I'm deathly afraid your going to say TR 215 series .. and if so I will most probably commit ritual suicide..
gadget

dangr

Don't know what I'm missing. The Delta Pro 18-C is definately 1000 watts program and 4 ohms. Eminence recommends a vented enclosure 3.0 to 10.5 cubic ft. Again, the pv118 is 6.7 cubic ft and vented. The stock driver is 400 warrs program. They will be used with my PA for the 1st time Fri nite and I'll report back. Playing bass thru them and pushing them hard, they're much louder, more defined and tighter than stock.
For tops I've been using JRX125's that are up for sale. Im' looking at Yorkville and JBL SRX.
My question regarding DPRA in now that these are different subs what setting changes would be recommended with my current setup?

Gadget

Nominal Basket Diameter 18'', 457mm
Nominal Impedance* 8 ohms
Power Rating
Watts 500W
Music Program 1000W
Resonance 28Hz
Usable Frequency Range 37Hz-250Hz
Sensitivity*** 96
Magnet Weight 67oz
Gap Height .38'',9.53mm
Voice Coil Diameter 2.5'',63.5mm

There is the spec sheet right off the Eminence site...I see where you get the idea that they are 1000 watt speakers.. With 2.5 \" voice coils and a ceramic magnet of 67 ounces? they wouldn't last a minute under that kind of power...thats instantaneous and for super short periods...I stand by my statement... that is NOT an upgrade for the speaker that belongs in that cab...

You don't seem to get it....the speaker wants a 17.1 cubic foot cabinet or a PROPERLY VENTED cabinet! this range of 3.0 to 10.5 cubic foot is just a RANGE of sizes... then the cabinet needs to be TUNED using ports of a given size and length! it isn't as easy as just throwing any speaker in any box an volix! a monster speaker! If it was what would we need speaker manufacturers for.. we'd just build a box the size we need and throw any driver we have lying around into it...

Don't wast your time on JBL SRX speakers...they aren't worth it... I have another thread going with a guy...follow along... http://www.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 25&start=0

As for settings...are you 100% sure those are 4 ohms...this is IMPORTANT!!! because my info tells me that Eminence makes a DELTA pro @ 8 ohms only... Now it will make custom speakers but if those are new.. I'd like to see the sheet that came with the speaker... it would answer a LOT of questions...IF THEY ARE 4ohms you MUST run stereo...on the 2450.. and that gives you plenty of power to BLOW those things up! I'd set a HPF of 50 hz BW 18 and an LPF of around 111hz LR24... likewise for the JBL's a small spread (a few hz)118hz and an LR 24 filter...

gadget

dangr

Just read up on cabinet design. I'm putting the original drivers back in. Good thread on speakers and thanks for the advice.

http://eminence.com/pdf/DeltaPro-18C.pdf

Gadget

You COULD research the speakers and find something that is really close in TS parameters that actually IS an upgrade...but hey, really... I have found that if you want a subwoofer that CAN do the deed...get something that is made for that duty...like a 4\" voice coil woofer that can actually handle that kind of power...

There are cabinet designs (typically horn designs) that are very driver friendly... they usually have an extremely long horn path...(see the Bill Fitzmaurice \"table Tuba)

Did you try those settings?
Gadget

dangr

I'm in my local sound store yesterday and I spot 2 used JRX 118S's for cheap and I'm thinkin' that would be 2x the clean power (350 RMS @ 4Ohms) so I trade in the Peaveys and get them. When I get home somethin's telling me to look at the drivers. Turns out in one box is a Black Widow 1808-4 and the other 1808-8 500 RMS/1000 program, 4\" voice coil and yikes right back where I started? Just called the store and they have a 4 ohm basket, apoligize, and say they're good in those cabs and will back them up. I'm doing sound for a couple bands 2morrow nite and then my band from the stage Sat. nite and have no choice but to use them. I hope ya'll find this somewhat entertaining. Gadget, what settings do you recommend now?

Gadget

GAWD those guys are such a bunch of airheads...

No change really... the amps are the thing I was basing the settings on anyways...That and the JRX 125 tops...That is what I would be looking to get rid of...The thing is those JRX 118's came loaded with a cheap ass stamped frame woofer that they probably blew up right away.. and thought HOLLY CRAP what a piece of *&^%! Oh well... good luck.. just don't push them too hard and you should be all right.

I don't care that much for the BW as a sub, but they are superior to what was in there... the box isn't optimized for that woofer though...
Gadget

dangr

The Black Widows in the JRX118 boxes yielded a significant overall improvement. I didn't see the amp clip at all last nite. I'll probably cut the vent lengths from the 6\" to the 41/2\" Peavey recommends for them(will put it close to recommended DIY box).

Gadget

See there... you're learning... I'm glad it's working out!

Thanks for keeping us informed...
G

dangr

It all gets clearer as the obsession increases.
Well now I actually have upgraded my speakers and again seek suggested xover settings.
New setup:
JBL MRX525's (800 watts RMS 4 ohms) driven by Crown XTi 4000 (1200 watts to each in stereo)
JBL JRX118S's loaded w/500 watts RMS 4 ohm (4\" voice coil TS parameter close) Black Widows driven by QSC 2450 (750 watts to each).
Thot about getting MRX 518's but that didn't seem like much of an improvement after the right driver upgrade. Remember this is a bar band setup. I realize that I'm going to need 2X18's a side for anything larger.

Gadget

\"For tops I've been using JRX125's that are up for sale. Im' looking at Yorkville and JBL SRX. \"

So how in the world did you end up with those.....? I just took a look @ the spec sheet ... and I don't get it...HF falls off like a rock to 15-17k at more than 10 db down! AND falls off @ 120 hz and is 7 dab down @ 70 hz,,, yet they spec 57-20K @ 3db down????? What a crock...I see very little improvement here... but it's your system...I just hope you didn't let some GC know nothing sell you a bill of goods.

So where are we at here..? you want a 2x4 (stereo subs and stereo full range tops?) setup? What do you think you should set up @?
Gadget

dangr

Look at the graph for JRX125, MRX is a significant improvement and interestingly it looks like the SRX722 drops at the same HF point as MRX 525. Maybe I'll be buying and crying 3x. Don't get me started on GC. It takes very little to exceed what at best the hobbyist clerkers at GC collectively know about product. It was actually the consensus on other forums that MRX is good and hearing them in local club house systems that influenced my decision. When looking at Yorkville, I found them to be the most vague with specs and too large for my van w/everything else. SRX is 2x the price for the boxes +more $$ for their power requirements. I must admit that patience (to afford SRX) is not my strong point.
What I'm asking for are suggested settings 2x4 to compare your expert opinion to what I have.

Dra

Well, the wizard recommends crossing at 125. That seems really high for dual 15 cab over a single 18 cab. I'd try 100hz or even 90hz.

DRA

Gadget

Ok.. fair enough...I said my piece...

It would probably be best to (assuming 2 subs) bridge the 2450. As for the tops, with only 1200 watts/cab you probably better go with a LR24@ at a minimum of 100 hz, maybe slightly higher. You will want to Hipass the sub BW18 @ 45 hz to best take advantage of the amps power...These are basic settings and I'm sure you can come up with whats best for the speakers you have....I have the Yorkies, and while I admit their specs leave something to be desired...but they REALLY sound good.My elite 2242's have kicked ass for 10 years with no failures of any kind..

I'd set up a PEQ @ 1650hz and see if you can fix that huge dip in the response though...
Gadget

Fanman20

I'd set up a PEQ @ 1650hz

I wouldn't bother. (I can't hear that high)
I lost that frequency years ago.
Wouldn't know if it was right anyway!

(That where you employ your son to help and ask them what it sounds like, I let him adjust it)

Mark
PS Thats when you know you are starting to get old

dangr

I had my cans cranked 6 hours a day on the radio +the weekend warrior thing, so I need my daughter to help. lol!
The Black Widows make the subs a different box than DPRA would think they are AND they're 4 ohms so I can't bridge the 2450. With this in mind Gadget, would BW18 @ 45hz still be your recommendation?
Thanks,
Dangr

Gadget

You know Mark, those darn kids CAN hear that stuff, and having been brought up in a more and more digital world and expect to hear it all..(BTW they fall off like a stone @ 10k, and rise again at an even steeper rate above 16K) not like the old \"analog warmth\" generation like us that seem to fall farther and farther off the pace...Soon that analog sound will be dead and looked back on as an anomaly of the age... I have a fundamental problem with speaker manufactures that take license with a lack of standardization in measurement and that publish any damn thing they want as a tool to sell their product... even though the claims are ludicrous. I would much rather see no specs, than misleading ones used to sell a load of goods. JBL is at the forefront of this campaign to mislead by numbers and has used its reputation to sell some of the worst sounding garbage I have heard. I used to think it was just a case of \"JBL has a certain sound\" thing, then came the TR series of speakers...Sold on same page of every discount catalog and GC showroom right next to Yamaha, Peavey and Behringer ...but \"preferred\" because of the name... What kind of manufacturer would sell the numbers they have of those pieces of crap, and discontinue them less than a year later? Why? because they SUCKED beyond belief! This has predicated a scrutiny in the industry that has filtered down slowly, and the industry has started to show some signs of life and is fighting the trance that this type of rhetoric has fostered. Most people that \"KNOW\" will tell you to steer clear of the lower lines of JBL speakers, and it's with good reason. The problem isn't just in the low lines though.. It's also in the SRX 700 line and SMAART practitioners have begun pointing out the shortcomings of these speakers. Mikey Kovach, noted system tuner and installation professional, and infrequent poster here published specs for the supposed flagship of the line SRX 722 cabs that could not even reproduce 12K...Further investigation of they revealed that not only could the cabs not reproduce the 12K but they had two different horn drivers... What in the world???? :evil: THAT is inexcusable... and trying to get anything out of the great and mighty JBL... good luck!... My son also engineers for a club with the much vaunted VRX series speakers... they are harsh, and require a lot of processing in the full range mode. The SRX monitors...what can I say, the club has 6 and every 'B' level national act that come through cannot get enough out of them no matter what they do...(they often have their own BE and they seem to hate those things) It seems you cannot polish a turd....

RANT off... :oops:

I believe I have said... too much, but hey... it's how I feel..

Gadget

dangr

So taking into account that the subs are 4 ohms, I'll set BW to SRX sucks at MRX sucks Hz.


I will figure out the best settings, but I don't think folks looking for advice should get product bashing for a reply. Expressing opinions is something I personally enjoy in the right context.

Wish you all the best,
Dangr

Gadget

well, you got me.. like it or not, and I tend to call a joke a joke...I think till we demand satisfaction that these companies will continue to outsource to offshore and the quality will suffer. Knowledge is power, now you know that the specs are suspect, and perhaps you will need that info in the future... ...your mileage may vary...

As for the subs.. yes BW 18 @45 hz 50hz for outdoors...

Gadget

You do realize I'm just providing basic settings.. and that you really need to do some experimenting on your own and find out what works best...I have tried these settings on various systems and with my knowledge of sound and system set up I provide settings that should get you in the ballpark...

dangr

Been experimenting all day and will hear what the rig can really do Sat nite. I've learned to trust my own experience with products. AND like playing music it's more in your fingers and ability to dial in than the gear. That said, of course I buy the best I can(a Beta 58 will always sound better than SM for vox and QSC will outperform Behringer etc). Honestly, a respected soundman in my neck of the woods came to one of our shows(at a world renowned venue who's house system has MRX mains) and out of the blue was giving me a rant that he couldn't stand Yorkville which has always sounded good to me.
Yeah the offshore thing could be our downfall due to the greed of the few, it's been way out of control far too long.

dangr

Without sound provided and our soundman not available Sat. (for my own band) it’s on me from the stage. With the new gear there was no way I wasn’t going to pink the room. Approx. 25 patrons at a nite club, no formal dining going on and have done the following a few times before. First I inform management, then make an announcement to the effect, “What I have to do will take about 2 minutes, but will seem like an eternity. It’s going to sound like a TV station not tuned in or maybe an airplane landing in the room, but we’ll make it up to you cuz it’s gonna make the entire evening sound better.� Whew, I've gotton used to getting compliments on sound but certain members of my band who have been on the pro scene tell it from their perspective. Could not believe it, hearing it from them how good the new rig sounded. Had to rearrange my amps for the new setup, and again would like to thank Gadget and Dra for the FREE guide on gain structure, super limiting and the forum in general.
Dangr