Another hook up question

Silver Back

This is another hook up question. We are using a Mackie speaker system.
2 /SRR1530z
2 /SWA1801z.

They are set for stereo, cables are run into the sub then the 1530. We are using the Driverack PA. Coming out the High output to the speakers.
When we were first setting up the system we ask DBX tech support what program to use; answer program 3; Full Range.

The other day I came to the studio and found that my friend was now using program 2; Stereo 2 way with the the same cable set and coming out of the high output of the DriveRack PA. He had also pinked the room to responce C presicion low. It was sounding realy on the money. Even the sub harmonic synth was more well definable. I had the kick realy punching the bottom. The bass was was even deeper sounding and the low notes were more well defined. I know he did not change the crossover.

To me this sounds out of the ordinary for how a stereo 2 way would be set up. It seemed to work and work well.
Any Ideas on whats happening?

Gadget

According to MY manual #3 is stereo 2 way, and #5 is full range. But anyway why not set up in the wizard? Its pretty easy. Was the system at the studio EXACTLY the same as yours? I don't think there's any difference other than perhaps hipass frequency...
G

Fanman20

Hi Silver Back

Thought!
You have set up your speakers to accept full range input using the internal crossover in the sub to “split“ the signal to sub / top boxes

(I think the cross over point is 120hz)

This is OK as long as you are feeding a full range signal from the driverack PA into the subs

However (I suspect)

You have wired
mixer DRPA, (High output) into the Sub then into top boxes using drive rack “stereo 2 way output�
This in fact is feeding your \"full range speakers\" with the “high� frequencies only.
Any thing below say 100hz won’t be heard.
So therefore you are not hearing any low frequencies though your system. (and won’t be able to)

You have 2 options
1. Use full range output from DRPA into full range speaker setup (OK) full range output from DRPA
2. Use stereo 2 way output , “Lows� to subs the “Highs� into top boxes (Better) stereo 2 way output from DRPA

I think you need to check the presets that you are using
Confirm the it is full range! :?

PROGRAM LIST
1) Stereo 3Way
2) Stereo 2Way
3) Full Range
4) DJ Setup
5) Rock Venue
6) JRX112M 2X4
7) JRX115 2X4
8) JRX125 2X4
9) MRX512M 2X4
10) MRX515 2X4
11) MRX525 2X4
12) EON10G2 2X4
13) EON15G2 2X4
14) SRX712M 2X4
15) SRX712M 2X6
16) SRX715 2X4
17) SRX715 2X6
18) SRX722 2X4
19) SRX722 2X6
20) SRX725 2X4
21) SRX725 2X6
22) VRX928 2x4
23) VRX928 2x6
24) VRX932 2x4
25) VRX932 2x6

Mark

PS Gadget are our manuals different?

Gadget

Ya... it would seem that I have the older unit with none of the SRX or VRX speakers in it. I have instead SR series, MP series and a bunch of aftermarket speakers...

But a \"full range\" and a \"stereo 2 way\" shouldn't have a \"subs' crossover...they could however have different hipass filter frequency as a default...only way to find out is view the modules and see what the setups offer...

Gadget

Silver Back

You are correct. Mixer to DRPA; High out to sub in; sub out to top box's. The program was the Stereo 2 Way, and not the Full range program.

So the sub Harmonic synth was creating the lows below 100hz band pass that were not originaly there. The Sub Harmonic synth was well designed. Thats using the subs in a different way. That certainly made for a cleaner and more controlable low end.

I Thought to seperate the speakers in the begining when first setting the system up but I had gone through the wizard several times trying to grasp the difference between what custom and close match ment or the correct choice of filters also how to apply the delay correctly. So at the time it was easier to wire the speakers together and work with the full range program. I have since discovered Gadget's articles and am reading them.
Any quick advice would be appreciated. Thanks for your insite and help.

Gadget

Ya, drop the hipass filter to 35 hz bw 18 and let the REAL bass be there and THEN dial in the sub synth if you still think you need it... In the wizard simply go 2x2 (stereo 2way) all custom and get a blank slate bandpass filter. Remember that in auto EQ there is a lot more to it than slapping a mic on a stand anywhere in the room and have it turn out miracle sound...If your referring to the FAQ section \"read me first\" yes there is a lot of info and a lot about auto EQ.

Gadget

Silver Back

Thanks Gadget, and Fanman
This is redundent but let me ask. with the 2way it's - Mixer to DRPA; DRPA high out into Mackie top box's; DRPA low out to Mackie subs.

Your correct about pinking the room.There's a lot there to learn. I use a separate RTA when I check the system with my reference CD's.

It will be the weekend before I see the system.
You have been more than helpfull
Thank you.

Gadget

Yes that would work.. for me though.. I'd have the DRPA do the whole thing and skip using the outputs of the subwoofer...to the tops, gives greater flexibility, and allows different crossover points to be selected, as well as alignment delay and other things that aren't available with the 2 way setup...
g

Fanman20

I agree with G

and allows different crossover points to be selected,

If you lower the crossover piont than you can use more amp power to drive the sub in the lower freq (kick drum bass gtr)

I find that the sub driven up to 120 / 130 hz sounds muddy
crossed at 100 sounds so much better

Mark

Silver Back

I believe I misstated the DRPA setup; I said “DRPA 2 x 2 way setup� but described a 2 x 4 way setup?

I like the 2 x 4 way solution it is more flexible. You also get 2 more parametric EQ’s on the subs.

Fanman I wish the DRPA’s high output would cut lower than 100 kHz. In my project studio I use a sub with my near fields. You can adjust the level and band pass on the sub. I set the cut off lower than the manufacture suggests.

So the suggestion to use the 2 x 4 way sounds good to me.

Gadget what would you suggest as a good start time in the alignment delay?

Fanman you said I could adjust the power level to the subs. (The high frequencies are delayed.) How would that affect the alignment delay?

Gadget you stated going all “custom� in the Setup Wizard. I was trying to understand the “custom� choice. It seems to be used as some kind of bypass. That leaves the band pass/crossover/high-mid-low levels. That makes sense with the all in two powered Mackie’s.

The other side of “custom� sounds a bit more complicated. Say your speaker is listed or close matched but your power amp is not. For the power amp you would select “custom� bypassing that module and would adjust the power amp’s sensitivity manually out side the Setup Wizard?

If the reverse; your speaker is not listed and the power amp or similar is listed. For the speaker you would select “custom� bypassing that module but there may be nothing to adjust on the speaker. You have the specification of the speaker or is this adjustment now made through the band pass/crossover/high-mid-low output levels.

Gadget

Ok, first off the only way ANYTHING is bypassed is to select a crossover that does NOT use those outputs...Like a 2x2 doesn't use the mid or low outs or anything in them...If you select \"custom\" for the amps it doesn't BYPASS anything .. it just doesn't TELL you where to set the amp volume controls...If you select for instance the C300 mackie preset, the only thing that is doen at all is to give you a bandpass filter with a hipass... thats it... nothing else is done, no PEQ tweaks,no GEQ tweaks, no delay... NOTHING...Thats exactly what you get with the 2x2... a blank band pass filter. When you add to it.. like a 2x3 or 2x4, you add a hipass and lopass for the sub...As I posted in the \"active speaker\" setup in the FAQ section, the crossover point is all that we need to determine then because we are going to let the active sub be it's own hi-pass filter, and limiter (with the DRPA since it doesn't have a brick wall limiter).

So with that said, I'd select a 2x3 with a daisy chained SWA 1801z (if I had more than one that is). I would then send the hi outs to the sr1530z's with an LR 24 filter set to 102.1 hz (or whatever the closest to that is in the DRPA). For the Hipass on the sub BW 18 @ 35 hz, and the lopass @ 96.4 hz (or again wherever the closest DRPA crossover is...) this gives us a few hz spread to limit interaction of frequencies in the xover region...

As for delay... well you don't have much so I'd sweep the delay with music playing looking for a tighter sounding bass...

You made me laugh... out loud! with your
\" Fanman I wish the DRPA’s high output would cut lower than 100 kHz. In my project studio I use a sub with my near fields. You can adjust the level and band pass on the sub\"
Do you have any idea how high 100 khz is? thats 100,000 hz... even bats can't hear that high! thats about 50,000 hz higher than a DOG can hear...

well try that and see what happens... oh ya BTW you would use the Left Mono output. and since most low is unidirectional anyway stereo isn't necessary. Also, if you have 2 subs and you place them together instead of apart, you get 3db of free bass output!

Gadget

Fanman20

What's a \"K\" between friends


Call it a \"typo\" Silver Back

Mark

Fanman20

Hi all

Just want to clarify the terminology we are using.

2 x 2, 2 x 3, 2 x 4, Stereo 2 way etc

2x2

First digit represents number of inputs
Second digit represents number of outputs

So
2 x 2 is 2 inputs (stereo) and 2 outputs (L & R full range outputs)
2 x 3 is 2 inputs (stereo) and 3 outputs (high L & R and mono sub)
2 x 4 is 2 inputs (stereo) and 4 outputs (high L & R and sub L & R)

Stereo 2 way is
Stereo in and 2 way output (High and subs in stereo)

or

2 x 4

or

2 inputs and 4 outputs

Stereo 3 way is
Stereo in and 3 way output (High, mids and subs in stereo)

or

2 x 6

or

2 inputs and 6 outputs

Mark

Silver Back

Gadget and Fanman you guys are great! Thanks. I belive I have enough to go on at this stage. Will be back for more lessons soon. Silver Back
P.S. If have any more \"K\" Jokes I will let you know.