System setup with various amps, cabs, etc. (PAS, JBL, Crown)

ackerbone

First, let me send out a big thanks to Dra & Gadget!

My history: I'm an audio post engineer by day, a musician by \"night\" and a sound engineer by \"default\"! Essentially, I co-produce a couple of touring shows (Buddy Holly & Beatles tributes)...since I'm an audio guy by day, I've ended up getting more involved in the live sound aspect of our shows.

Our Equipment:
DriveRack PA
DBX reference mic
(4) PAS RS1's - tops
(2) JBL MX518S - subs
(2) Crown XLS 602
(2) Crown XLS 802

My research/background: I've read (and actually copy & pasted to create my own document for reference) many of the posts here, all of the manuals, and have used the DriveRack for a few months now. I have a good understanding of how it all \"works\", but would like a little more guidance in order to really get the system \"humming\". I'm afraid I am just missing a few things, maybe not using my equipment to it's optimal, etc.

My Goal: I absolutely love the PAS RS1 \"tops\" and would like to get the MF218 subs to compliment, but we all know how budgets go...one thing at a time. All of that aside, could anyone assist with say...

1. What amps should I use where?
2. Crossover points?
3. An \"order\" of doing things...I seem to find everything in various places on this post and just want to be sure I'm doing it all in the right order (crossover, gain structure, Auto EQ...I've been reading alot here about getting a \"flat\" system first and will do that)

I guess to simplify...I have a good understanding and appreciation of \"technical/geeky\" things, but I think I'm missing some things to really get my system kickin' the way it's supposed to. Im willing to read and do what I can to utilize my gear to it's utmost.

Chris

Gadget

I am intimately familiar with the RS1's and they can really crank... those subs would NEVER be able to keep up with those tops if properly powered...unfortunately you are VERY VERY underpowered... Our typical setup was 6 labsubs with 6 RS1 over with a 2450 bridged ion each RS1 and 5000watts on the subs... DEVASTATING!

Anyway the RS's are 4 ohms, the amps do NOT recommend 4 ohm bridged...so the best we can shoot for is one RS per channel, on the 802, and one sub bridged on the subs using the 602...and hope they don't blow up?I don't know here...not good...everything is 4 ohms...bad amp choices here...

well, check with Crown and see if they can be bridged...@ 4 ohms...yikes...SOOO under powered, your going tom have to be VERY careful...

I guess I'd cross @ around 120 hz since your so lopsideed and let the subs determine the systems output.. you are severely under subbed in this setup...

Why don't you tell me more about what you intend to do here...

Gadget

ackerbone

Thanks...this is really helping me to know what's best.

Ok, what about this option...I'm looking at getting 2 MF218's (also PAS) to go along with my 4 RS1's (1 sub per side). I could (and probably will) do this within weeks, so let's look at that option with the amps I have. And, if you have suggestions for augmenting (although I really would NOT like to shell out more on amps at this point if I can at all help it).

Our main purpose with this system is for two shows that perform around the country in theaters (vary in size, but no larger than say 1,000 seats). These shows are Buddy Holly and Beatles \"tributes\". So, nothing really \"cranking\" needed, but I'm really a stickler for good, quality, full sound.

Does that give us a direction here?

Gadget

hmmm... well thats STILL a 4 ohm load...and those amps don't support that load in bridged mono...so your eft with a speaker that wants at LEAST 1000 watts, but could use up to 4000watts per cabinet... and to get them going, you NEED that power backup... as headroom...

I don't know what you are thinking here... you already have 2 JBL subs, they are ok, but 4 ohm... you could get two more, and ... well those amps don't support 2 ohm stereo either...man were screwed at every turn here...I guess if low end is not a major factor... sorry but those amps not being able to support either 2 ohm stereo, or 4 ohm bridged, and your speakers all being 4 ohms... there is so little room to do anything... your stuck with too little power and speakers that can really crank...

I don't know what your looking to pay for the PAS bottoms, but I'd see about either trading in the JBL's (if you intend to get the PAS) or getting two more (JBL) and an amp like the Yamaha PM7000 (around $600) or the Crown XTi 4000 for around $800... Amps that can handle 2 ohm stereo, or 4 ohm Bridged...

Just to let you know... each of those tops could take an XTI 4000 EASILY in bridged mono...or even an XLS 5000...with tons of headroom... (for me too much power is NEVER enough!)

I mean Geez those MRX 518's can take 2000 watts and never bat an eye...Bottom line... add the PAS subs.. or the JBL's and you need another amp...

there is no wiggle room here...

Gadget

Dra

Think about it a minute. You need more sub output. You desparately need more power. You can buy 2 more subs (guessing $800-$1200 each).
Why not buy bigger and better amps as Gadget said? You were willing to shell out at least $1600.
If you don't have a place to apply them (monitors for example) consider selling the 602's (and maybe the 802's). You could probably get $225, $275 each respectively, maybe more.

OR

Sell the subs and get some 8ohm cabs.

Look at ALL your options.

DRA

ackerbone

Ok gents,

I did some researching today based on your input...this side of things (amps, speakers config) has never been on the top of my knowledge ladder. But, it's so great to learn how to do this really the right way.

First, I'm not necessarily opposed to selling/buying new gear (of course...that's what we all DO!) but I'd like to do it wisely and in the hundreds (or low thousands...) NOT many thousands!

So, here's my thought (and let me make sure I'm understanding)...

Option 1 - it's going to be cheaper to add 2 more MX518 subs (let's say $1,000 less). Then, get an XTI 4000, run it in stereo 2 ohm (since I'd have 2 4 ohm cabs on each side). I would continue to run the tops (RS1's) on the 802's (both in 4 ohm stereo). Or, would I be better off getting another XTI 4000 and running it 2 ohm stereo for the tops (two 4 ohm on each side)? Then, I'd sell all my amps (602's and 802's)

Option 2 - Replacing the MX518 subs with PAS MF218's. Keeping the two XTI (one for subs and one for tops) in the mix.

Are either of these in the right direction? Is that enough power (remember what I'm trying to accomplish with the shows in a theater)? I realize this isn't necessarily DriveRack related, but in a round about way it is. I want to get the most out of my beloved DriveRack....and this is all really helping.

Gadget

Lets understand first off that EACH of your speakers could pretty much gobble up an XTI 4000 in bridged mode. Lets also point out that any amp running 2 ohms is going to require a huge amount of power, but the efficiency of the design of the XTI power supply helps some here, but the days of running the system on a 100 foot 16 gage cable are over...

One nice feature you will undoubtedly enjoy is the fact that the total amp package weight will go from 130 lbs ...to 37lbs ...

Sadly that is the big benefit here because in 2 ohm mode, you still have only 800 watts per cab...which is what the 802 provides.

Lets also realize here that to get twice as loud as a 100 watt amp we would need 10 times the power...

Have you been running the system in this configuration and do you have enough sound the way it is? is the low end sufficient?

I guess all things considered what I would probably consider is...
4 Yamaha S7000S amps ( $550 at full compass last I checked)
add a pair of JBL subs to match ( about $ 500 @ NSL?)

That would give you 1100 watts for each RS1, and JBL... 120 lb amp package, not running on the ragged edge all the time@ 2 ohms where if anything fluctuates you have a disaster...and shipped under $3500...if you want more low end ground stack the subs all together for a free 9db of added power, place them against a wall for an additional 3-6 db, or corner load for up to 9 db.. all absolutely free...since the 260 has a couple of MILES of delay to align with your tops... stack the RS1's, flip the top one on each side UPSIDE down so the horns can couple (two per side and even if you splay them you still get the benefit, and reduced interaction in the coverage areas...

If you do run them 2 over 2 you need to splay the RS1's so that the 60 degree horizontal coverage doesn't overlap causing frequency anomaly problems in the above 2k region..

I don't know... thats the best I can offer...

Gadget

ackerbone

Getting there...

In answer to Gadget's question...The system as it sits now works and sounds decent (I run the 2 802's stereo to 4 RS1 tops and 2 602's bridged for each sub). In doing the reading in the posts, and all of the \"read me first\" (great info BTW) I wanted to be sure I was utilizing everything I had. In a \"smaller\" room, it sounds fab, but get in something larger and I do lack a little low end.

Do you think my main issue is lack of actual subs (I figure the solo 18's per side are not adequate)? I don't think this has come up yet, but the XLS 602 is 1,680 watts bridged 4 ohm mono. I've got 2 of them. So, if I use those on 2 of the PAS bottoms (4 ohm) shouldn't that be enough power? The adding of 2 more 18's would then \"move more air\" and should get what I need shouldn't it?

Gadget

Whats the fascination with the PAS subs just trying to keep everyhting the same color? How much are they? Yes more subs more output, and 1680 watts would be ok~ (but if you consider it thats still only 840 watts per speaker...you just have MORE speakers...)but the Peavey SP218 subs for about $750 may be the best bang for the buck in the 218 front loaded cabs... they use the Pro Rider 18's and you could probably add the JBL's into the mix for 3, 18's per side for bigger gigs or put em all together for a bass happy day!

BUT if yiou want to put a hitch in your giddeup the pro rides can take 4800 watts EACH DRIVER...:shock:

Gadget...

Fanman20

BUT if you want to put a hitch in your giddeup.......

Another gem from G

Mark

Dra

Since yopu listed the 602 as 1680w @ 4ohm mono, does that mean that you got an answer from Crown tech that is was OK?

If you go the \"sell\" route, Work up the replacement costs first and them figure in your \"rebate\" minimum. Them make sure they sell before you buy (assuming that you can cover the time down).

DRA

ackerbone

I did not contact Crown directly, but rather found it in the manual... see link below and go to pg 5

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/133465-6.pdf

I've been running them this way for about 6 months with no problems (yes, I'm knocking on my wooden desk now).

Thanks for all the input...I'm still weighing my options. No real \"fascination\" with PAS subs...I just REALLY like the tops and \"assume\" the subs would be a beautiful match. The Peavey look like (from the specs) they would do a nice job as well...but the colors don't match!

I'll keep y'all posted.

Dra

I really dislike it when a website gives different information than the manual. Let us know how it goes.

DRA

Gadget

Option three... the color controversy....

We had the RS's 'Line X' coated ... and since it comes in Gothic Black, matches perfectly with the Peavey cabs...ESPECIALLY if they too are coated...Then, you have a pretty much BULLET proof speaker, that when dropped down a flight of stairs... will LOOK perfect! even though the components will be scrambled with the magnets and the horn driver inside! :shock: After all it's more important to LOOK good then the BE good! right.

G

I wonder if they could have possibly hidden that any better? Or made it more obscure?...Seems they don't want you to actually KNOW it can do the bridged thingy~ :roll: