New 260 owner, 2 questions on gain and limiters

KDG

Hello All, first post but have been reading for a while now. I’ve had the DRPA for about a month and now have a 260 as well. Setup is left/right out of board to the 260 to the amps.

Carvin 24 channel board
2 Yamaha s215v cabs powered with a Yamaha P7000S parallel (260 channel 1)
Cabs are 4olm, 1000w prog, amp is 1100w@ 4olm per channel
HPF@91 LR24, LPF OUT, GAIN=0

2 Yamaha s215v cabs powered with a second Yamaha P7000S parallel (260 channel 2)
Cabs are 4olm, 1000w prog, amp is 1100w@ 4olm per channel
HPF@91 LR24, LPF OUT, GAIN=0

2 Yamaha sw218v subs powered with a third Yamaha P7000S stereo (260 channel 3 and 4)
Cabs are 4olm, 1200w prog, amp is 1100w@ 4olm per channel
HPF@45.5 BW18, LPF@91 LR24, GAIN= - 4.00


2x4 crossover
All eq's, and subsynth are off

The above setting were chosen by the wizard after entering cabs and amps with the exception of the sub HPF which was somewhere near 35.

questions:

1. When performing the gain structure, the top amps will clip a little past 3 oclock when turning the amps up. The sub amp can be turned wide open and will not clip. This may be a good thing but I wanted to check. Is this ok or do I need to get it closer to clipping?

To make it clip, I had to push the channel and master faders all the way, gain knob about 90% and turn up the sub crossover gains to almost 30.0db. This seemed a bit extreme. I did not leave it this way.


2. When setting the limiter using overeasy 4 and a peakstop of +2, if a threshold of +15 stops the clip light, do I drop it down to +13 to accommodate the +2 peakstop, or do I leave it at +15?


Thanks in advance.

Ken

Dra

I have to go, but I'll answer #2.
With a threashhold of +15db and an overshoot of +2db. Limiting starts at 15 and will not let anything beyond 17 through, 17 in 17 out, 18 in 17 out, 22 in 17 out. Will try to touch others later.

DRA

Dra

Now let's attack #1.
What are you using as a pink noise source? I'll assume a CD. Is the EQ on the channel flat? Make sure that the cable(s) used from the CD player are good. A bad cable can squash low frequencies.
Is he channel fader on -0-?
Are you PFLing to verify that the signal to the main bus is -0-?
In regular metering mode are the meters reading a steady -0-?
Now, is the input meter (preferably on the GUI) on the 260 steady on -0-?
If not increase the input masters in the 260).

Good cables to the 260 and to the amps? Swap to be certain.

Get this far and post back.

DRA

KDG

What are you using as a pink noise source? I'll assume a CD. -- cd download

Is the EQ on the channel flat? -- yes

Make sure that the cable(s) used from the CD player are good. -- just got a new cable, same situation with the previous cable

Is he channel fader on -0-? -- yes

Are you PFLing to verify that the signal to the main bus is -0-? -- followed steps below, was higher than -0- but not near clipping
5. Disable the AFL(s) (after fader listen) on the mixers master output channel(s) and enable the PFL (pre fader listen) on the mixer input channel (with pink noise). If your mixer does not have these features just make sure you have no clipping and sufficient signal to not run into signal to noise problems.
6. Turn up the mixer input channel gain trim pot (with pink noise) until the meter bounces in the yellow at least 6dB below clipping. MAKE SURE THERE IS NO CLIPPING! (actually anything over 0 VU will be fine)

In regular metering mode are the meters reading a steady -0-? -- Unsure which meters you mean and also would have to check.

Now, is the input meter (preferably on the GUI) on the 260 steady on -0-? -- Will have to check this as well, I didnt have the laptop hooked up last night

If not increase the input masters in the 260). -- I know I had to decrease these to -5db as the driverack on screen said \"clip\". I followed this step.
9. With the DriveWare GUI open the DriveRack panel meter and then one of the mixer input dialogs (click on the \"M\"). Put the master fader at “unity� (0dB). Watch the DriveRack’s panel meter and pull the input fader up or down until the output meters are bouncing in the yellow about 3dB just below clipping. Absolutely no clipping (red) on the DriveRack’s input or output panel meters!
If you are using a DRPA you have a button on the back that sets the input sensitivity to +4db (pro level) or -10 (consumer level) if the meters on the mixer are at just clipping and your using +4 and the meters on the Driverack are anywhere above the 0vu but below the clip light your fine... there is no input mixer to adjust... If the signal is low try the -10 setting and see if that gets you to a more appropriate setting.

Good cables to the 260 and to the amps? Swap to be certain. -- they are new as well, all the same and all the same length 5 ft. I have 2 full sets and both do the same thing.

I will run all cables through the tester when I can.
Basically I followed the gain structure procedure as best I understood it.
FWIW the same scenario happens to me with the DRPA and the sub amp not clipping.
The channel meters for the tops on the front of the 260 are 2 to 3 lights higher than the subs when playing cd music.
The system sounds ok after turning the tops down some at the amps.

Thanks again for helping, I 'm trying to be sure its not running in a way that will damage the subs. We have different hands at the board sometimes too.

Ken

Dra

Have you tried switching the amps?
Are the filters set too high on the amps?

DRA

KDG

Dra,

I have not tried switching amps, I do remember powering the subs once with a carvin amp(dcm2000) before we had the yam P7000S and it could be set wide open with no clipping also, that was with the DRPA. I will try the switch Sat night.

The crossover knob (filters) on the back of all the Yam P7000S amps are turned off with the \"lowcut/subwoofer/off\" switch on back of amp.

Can we go back to question 2 for a second to make sure I got it right for the amps that will clip.
Based on your previous post, if +15thresh stops the amp clipping light, then +13thresh and +2peakstop is the HIGHEST the limiters should be set to be safe, correct?
How good or bad is the \"auto on\" option? I believe Gadget mentioned artifacts in a post somewhere. Are they present often or just when it is really being pushed hard? I am not very comfortable (dont know what I'm doing) setting the hold,attack, release settings at this point. Thanks.

Ken

Dra

#2 follow-up is correct.
I can't remember if it was Gadget or Kevin that discovered it. I don't use it simply base on their findings. A good starting point for attack, hold, release, etc would be where the wizard sets them at. For softer limiting you could go lower on the threshhold (11)and increase the overshoot (4). That would still set the brickwall at your 15.

DRA

KDG

OK, Sat night I swapped between all 3 of the Yamaha P7000S amps for the subs and all did the same thing. I also tested all related cables and spares using a bugcatcher tester, all tested ok. Swapped between these cables with same results.

When entering these subs and amps into the wizard, it sets the limiter settings and recomends setting the amp knobs at 82. Should I just go with those settings since it cant be adjusted manually?

Thanks,
Ken

Dra

Gadget, You following this?

DRA

Gadget

So, I'm trying to catch up here.. in the gain structure you cannot get the Yamaha's to clip with NO LOAD, AND with the Subs hooked up? Do the subs sound ok?

Looking at the Amp, it has a protection feature that when the amp clips it automatically mutes the outputs... perhaps that is the reason? Especially if the thing sounds good and seems to work well.

G

KDG

All testing has been done with no speakers connected as per the Gain Structure procedure. The two P7000s amps that run the 4 tops will clip at about 3 oclock. The one P7000s for the subs can be turned wide open without clipping. Since I have 3 P7000s amps, I have tried each of them for the subs and they all do the same, no clip. This is the complete opposite of what I expected to see, I figured the bottom amp needs to work harder to produce the lows and would run out quicker than the tops

The system sounds ok, just not sure I'm getting enough signal (or something) to the sub amp. I also wonder why it takes so much (see 1st post) to get the sub amp to clip and not the other 2 amps.

When using the system, to balance everything out, the sub amp is a couple nothes back from wide open and the top amps are at about 30-40%.

Thanks for the help so far guys, I am just learning most of this so feel free to correct any of my thinking that doesnt make sense.

Ken

Kyle Abel

Do you have a low-cut/HPF engaged on the mixer channel which you're running your pink noise into? If so, that would be cutting off a good chunk of your low-frequency signal to your subs...

Gadget

If you get a chance, send me the .dwp file for your setup...
Gadget
tzone42@paulbunyan.net

Dra

Good thought Kyle.
Have you tried moving to another channel, just in case the one is bad? Do you have access to a tone generator or recorded tones or sweeps?
I just don't like what you are getting.

Please tell us that you don't have the limiters engaged, or compression or anything else.

DRA

KDG

Thanks for all the ideas guys, heres some answers.

The board does have a lowcut button for each channel, a number of the channels are using it but it is turned off on the channel the pink noise is going through.

Have not tried using a different channel on the board, will try that, might be a couple days before I can.

Limiters, compessor, eqs, and subsyth are all off.

I have the full Bink Audio test cd. No tone generator.

One more thing, I am using a cheapo walmart cd/dvd player to play the pink noise (seems to work fine though). Think it could be that? I will try a different one as well. The cable is new with Dual RCA jacks on player end to mono 1/4\" plug into the board channel. Take care.

Ken

Dra

Is the cable factory made and 1 piece? Or multiple pieces (adapted)?
Does the board have tape in? Try it with straight RCA's.

Also you could try some bass heavy music, (c)rap for example, and see if you can get it to clip the amp (no speakers connected of coarse).

One more follow-up. The board meters are solid into the red when doing this, right?

DRA

Gadget

I see lots of holes here.. I have sent you a revised .dwp file.. load it and LOOK AT THE CHANGES...I added almost 8 db of gain to the subs...Added some PEQ's set the ;limiters (roughly... watch for the changing limit (red)

First set the gain structure...I DON\"T CARE WHERE THE WIZARD SETS ANYTHING!!!!! use what I sent and then see what the sub amps do, you may need to add even MORE gain...to the subs

Subs are POWER HUNGRY... and LESS efficient than the tops, which are in this case only 1db?????more efficient? O-well...the subs still need a bunch more power due to the nature of the sound, and the power that part of the spectrum needs to get through...is way more than the tops

Shut the tops OFF... play the subs....you shouldn't hear ANYTHING that is intelligible.. if you hear singing, words, or instruments... the subs are crossed too high...you should hear dull.. muffly...BOOM! (and it should be THUMPIN!) add the tops and the clarity, and punch return.

MAKE DEAD SURE the subs are NOT 3 1/2 feet from any boundary...or the kick drum will disappear...for each 3 1/2 foot boundary (wall/floor...corner...ceiling, stage......there is a 3db CUT in output.... add 2 ..and then 3 of those distances together... and 100,000 watts of power would not be able to make the kick 'THUD\" :shock:

You may find that the subs need MORE gain... you may find that the crest factor on an MP3 version of the 'Binks\" audio CD...played through a less than adequate player will also degrade the results...

Some say the crest factor of pink noise is insufficient for system setup... that is beyond the scope of this post.

Crank the controls on the Sub amp...
Use the settings I sent...If the system (other than the tops amps...that respond correctly in the gain structure ) is bass heavy turn down the sub amps... and of course if it's the tops, turn them down...

Gadget

KDG

Thanks a lot Gadget, and everyone. It may be a week or so before I can get back to the system, but I will try the new file and post back when I can.

Ken