Simple setup question

Jonny

Hi,

I would be grateful for some advice on a simple setup for a bar/restaurant that my friend has recently taken over.

They have the following equipment:

DriveRack PA
Two T-1000 amps (manufactured by MC2 Audio UK)
Six BR-6 speakers (manufactured by Ohm UK)

I only had a brief chance to set something up this morning and so far I am just using one of the amps, and I selected the \"Full Range\" preset in the DriveRack. The speakers are spread evenly around the venue and all of them seem to be working, but I didn't get a chance to turn it up loud because customers were starting to come in for lunch.

So I will be going back tomorrow morning again before opening, if there is anything you could recommend for this setup. Should I be using the other amp also?

I have read your \"Understanding the DriveRack PA\" document and briefly looked at the \"Start Here\" post regarding gain structure, but it would be much appreciated if you could provide me with a starting point as to how I can use this equipment better than currently, as each time I go to the venue, I don't have a lot of time to familiarize myself with all of the DriveRack functions. I'm sure that over time, I will come to understand it better.

For your reference, here are links to the datasheets for the amp and speakers:

http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/t1000/data-sheet.pdf
http://www.ohm.co.uk/PDF/br-6.pdf

Thanks for your help.

Regards,
Jonny

Gadget

That's a tough one... under powered, 10 db down @ 100 hz...you need some subwoofers!...I mean good grief your down 3db @ 150 hz...you need something to run 200 hz and down...for there to be any kind of depth of sound...

I need some more to go on here...I assume this is a disco setup? NO subs? are you sure? that's crazy... If it's background music then fine, I need to know that... but then why would you need someone to \"take the system over\"?

With one amp, running all 6, (and stereo is the ONLY way...you would have less then 200 watts per speaker, if you ran Bridged mono and used BOTH amps you'd have about 400-450 per speaker...What of the speaker positioning? is stereo delivery important?

Gadget

Jonny

Hi Gadget,

Thanks for your reply.

At the moment, there are no subs.

In the past, it would seem that the system has only ever been used for background music, but they now want to turn it up a bit at night when the restaurant closes and only the bar is open, but not to nightclub level or anything like that.

The urgency of adding subs will depend on just how little depth the sound has after I have set up the DriveRack according to your recommendations. I will explain this to the manager.

Regarding the speaker positioning, I said that just to give an idea of how they were being used and to provide as much information as possible. I hadn't thought about the implications of stereo delivery or otherwise.

So what do you think I should try in the meantime?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,
Jonny

Dra

These appear to be something akin to the JBL contractor speakers and definately are for background. I have some of the 5\" woofered ones for my home system on a 100w receiver and they will get pretty loud (with a sub). At least loud enough to get over regular conversation in a bar. Definately need a sub or 2.
The spec say to put a HPF at 100hz (with out a sub) as steep as possible (I'd say).

DRA

Gadget

117 db is quite loud actually, there just won't be much low end, and I have to tell you low end is my LIFE
I won't KILL for it.. but darn close :shock:

Any way...70 hz HPF BW18, Low shelf PEQ @125hz 12db/octave slope ~8db gain ... this would be if you want any low end out of them at all, and this is only for the bridged mono both amps so you have 400~watts or so for each speaker.. that's also NOT for use cranked up... you'll likely puff the woofers... but for louder background that should get you flatter down to 70 hz or so...
Don't use the sub synth
You could try an auto EQ if you have the mic but do an up close 1 cab only to see what the system will do..(see pics of the indoor monitor setup in the FAQ section (with pics now!) (121.7 db..blah blah...)

G

Fanman20

Hi All

My question is
What are you wanting the \"Pa system to achieve\"
Forget, the time being, what gear you have,
What do you want to achieve????

Back ground music, disco, bands???
Do you want the system to ever go loud enough to stop people talking??
PA for public speaking???
This was G's first question

but they now want to turn it up a bit at night when the restaurant closes and only the bar is open, but not to nightclub level or anything like that.

What does this mean in practical terms??
Do people still need to talk over the system???
Not sure we have answers the question yet.
(No use in buying more equipment if what you have is antiquate)



Second thought

6 x 8 ohm speakers on 1 amp
OK if 3 per side (T 1000 good for 2 ohms both channels driven)

If he used 2 amps in bridge mode need to watch what ohms he has.
Amp will deliver 4 ohms in bridge mode

3 x 8 ohms speakers per amp won't work

I don't have a lot of time to familiarize myself with all of the DriveRack functions

Have you seen the interactive guide??

http://www.dbxpro.com/PA/PA.htm
(on the right hand side in the resources section in the drop down box.)

Mark

Jonny

Hi Mark,

Sorry for not providing enough information.

They will be playing background music from a CD player when the restaurant is open. People will need to be able to talk normally over this.

When the restaurant closes, the music will still be from the CD player, but will be louder. People may have to raise their voices a little, maybe leaning over a bit to speak to someone, but they shouldn't have to shout and certainly not stop talking completely.

There will be no disco, bands, or public speaking.

I was just about to post a reply to Gadget and Dra when I read your reply Mark. I was going to say that I just went down to the venue tonight to hear what my earlier single-amp setup sounded like once a bit louder. And I have to say that the earlier predictions of Gadget and Dra were correct, in that loudness was not a problem, just a lack of low end. In fact, I think they would be prepared to sacrifice loudness for some more bottom.

And I was also about to say that I was going to try Gadget's settings tomorrow (or later today now), but now I think I should wait to see what you and others think based on what you have just said.

Thanks for the link to the interactive guide. I will have a look at it to try to prepare before going to the venue (in 9 hours time).

Regards,
Jonny

Fanman20

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts

Does the restaurant have space for a sub on the floor??
Should it be in the roof???
On the wall??

How big is the restaurant?

Mark

Jonny

Hi,

I have just received a call from my friend who runs the bar and he has told me he has a subwoofer, also made by Ohm UK. The model is BR-15B. Its description and spec are at the link below:

http://www.ohm.co.uk/ohm_products_br15b_01.htm

He says there is a unused speaker cable coming out of the wall in the dining area. Perhaps the sub could go there? I would have to find out how to connect to it.

Could I set the DriveRack up to have two setups, one with the sub and one without, so that they could be switched between as necessary, so as not to disturb the diners? Or would the sub not cause any disturbance if the volume was low anyway during restaurant hours, in which case I would only need a single DriveRack setup?

Regarding the size of the restaurant, I'm not good with sizes but I wouldn't say it's very big. There are nine 4-seater tables in the dining area, and an adjacent bar which is about the same size as the dining area.

I would much appreciate it if you could provide some advice on setting up the DriveRack with the sub included.

Thanks again for your time and effort.

Regards,
Jonny

Fanman20

Hi Jonny

Funny thing
I had wrote in my last reply 4 more questions

1 Is there any wires coming out of the second amp
2 Is there a sub woofer in the back room?
3. Why is there a second amp not used?? Was is connected to a sub at some stage??
4 Why did the previous owners buy 2 amps and only use 1??

But I deleted the questions as I thought there were too many for you to answer (O well)

He says there is a unused speaker cable coming out of the wall in the dining area. Perhaps the sub could go there?

I suspect unused speaker cables go to the second amp

Could I set the DriveRack up to have two setups, one with the sub and one without, so that they could be switched between as necessary,

defiantly, that would of been my suggestion. I suspect the last owners removed it because it was annoying the quests. (unless G was there and he would of turned it up)

Or would the sub not cause any disturbance if the volume was low anyway during restaurant hours, in which case I would only need a single DriveRack setup?

I would go with 2 setups. Gives versatility

I would have to find out how to connect to it.

The wiring of the amp and sub is interesting
How many wires are coming from the amp??
what are the wires coming out of the wall??
does it have a connector on it??
I suspect that the 2 channel amp runs the 2 speakers in the sub separately
Need more info on the connection

Mark

PS Where do you live??
Australia , USA Canada??
You seen to be on line same time as me

Jonny

Hi Mark,

I won't know how many wires are coming from the second amp until I go to the venue later this morning.

From my friend's description, the wires coming out of the wall are just speaker cables with no connector, but he said there is a connector lying on top of the sub.

I am hoping that your guess is right and that the second amp could be used to run this sub.

I have to get a bit of sleep now. It's 4am here in the UK, and I have to be at the venue at 10am. But I will check this forum again before I leave, so if you (or anyone else reading this) has any ideas on what I should try when I get there, please let me know.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Regards,
Jonny

Fanman20

G'day From down under

Need to get it all connected first

Most important answers needed

1. What is the connector in the back of the speaker?? Speakon or cannon
2. What is the connector (that is the \"connector lying on top of the sub\") Speakon or cannon
3. How many wires are there coming out of the wall?? 2 or 4
4. What is at the amp end?? How or are the wires connected there??
5. What cables are at input to the amp??


Hope you had a good sleep
Mark

Gadget

You could have a ton of different setups... all different, as many as there are presets, and in the DRPA that's 25... is that enough?

If you run the tops all off one amp you'll need to use a 200-250 xover point...(and that would require subs...)on adjacent xover points use the same type/slope, in most cases LR 24... For the HPF (lowest point the system will be allowed to go... use a BW 18 filter.I've already given you the setup for the six tops without subs... IF it's background music.. or even a bit more...But if it's to be loud music, then the sub/tops thing will be best, use the points provided.

G

Jonny

Hi,

The connector lying on top of the unused sub was a speakon connector, so I attached it to the unused speaker cable coming from the wall, plugged it into the sub, tested the sub with the second amp, and it worked.

I then followed Gadget's instructions several times as I had some trouble getting the settings to store and kept losing them, but it least it familiarized me with the programming procedure. Eventually I got them stored and it sounds a LOT better than before.

Even when I use it without the sub, it sounds so much better than the factory program I chose yesterday.

So it now has two custom user programs for use with and without the sub.

I will go down to the venue later tonight to hear what it sounds like with different types of music.

This exercise has been very educational and your guidance has saved me a lot of learning time. It is much appreciated.

Regards,
Jonny

Gadget

Yes the 'STORE' program requires 3 separate presses of the 'store' button where you confirm that you really want to replace the preset, it gives you a chance to name it.. and a chance to chose any of 25 locations to store the new preset...

What did you finally end up doing? If a spare amp was used what crossover points did you use? Again , the limiting factors are usually amp power, and speaker frequency response... the 3db down point. I also like to look @ the frequency plot (if one is available (footnote...frequency plots are only one sample.. if all speakers components were identical in response... we would have a MUCH easier time, but alas they are not...)
Gadget

Jonny

Hi Gadget,

Regarding the crossover points, I was limited for time again today before customers came in for lunch, so I'm not entirely sure if what I did was correct.

I was armed with your document from the \"Start Here\" forum, a printout of this thread, and the specs for the tops and sub. I was experimenting with the settings on the graph in the XOVER module. But I ran out of time and just had to store what I had done.

I will have to go back and make a note of what I did.

I intend to experiment with these settings whenever I get the chance to find out exactly what effect they have, to help me understand what is going on.

But as I said in my last post, there is a major difference in the sound quality now than before, and my friend is delighted with the result.

Regards,
Jonny

Gadget

Cool.... we aim to please... :idea:

Fanman20

Well done

I am still wondering how the sub is connected and powered
You may only be using 1 speaker within the sub
and/or powering the sub with only one side of the amp

Have you useed the bridged output of the amp??

Looking forward to how you wired it

Mark