Is good sound even possible?

vjjustinallen

OK Gadget I read the links you posted in another thread for me. Thanks!...and now I am really lost lol

I am a DJ and am playing 4 shows over 6 weeks at a local college venue. This venue holds approx 1500 kids and has a stage that is approx 4 feet high, 35 feet long and 20 feet deep. The dance area is in front of this stage and goes back around 90 feet and to the left side about 200 feet (kinda guessing here). I have the equipment listed in my signature.

Now for the statements

1) I cannot set the flat response by putting by set-up in a field (rain and snow now) so the only set-up I can do is in the Venue.

2) Last year someone on this board made me a \"preset\" for my amps and speakers. It sounds good but I have only used this system 4 times since then. I usually do clubs so they have systems.

3) I complained to EV about them NOT having a preset in the 260 and they tried to sell me their dbx system. They did give me a chart on what values to use but I cannot upload it here.

4) I have the dbx mic

5) I usually place each dual 15\" speaker on top of one sub and then place them on either side of my set-up.

Now for the question:

1) I really want a good sounding room. Simply put, how can I make this happen?

I have tons more questions but am overwhelmed with the reading I have just done. It seems that I have no hope of getting it to sound good

Gadget

Thats all fine and good... why can't you post them here? Send me an email with the settings, that way we can assist...
tzone42@paulbunyan.net
As for the Auto Eq do you see the principle here? the reflections in the room will wreak havoc with the sound.. it will butcher the low end and the highs....so, you can either do a \"new indoor auto EQ, or in the club you can do a near field setup. (remember that this presumes a properly set up and tuned system, with a gain structure setup as well) There, you do a 6-8 feet strait out from one top, mic on a stand, located in between the horn and top woofer, This is best achieved with only one stack on... the mic is probably best about 6 feet out, the thing were trying to do here is make the sound from the speakers so much louder than the speakers so much louder than the reflected sound that the reflected sound won't play a factor in the auto EQ process. Use -0- or flat response, and if you have no constraints on time or pain factor use medium or even high precision. I recommend that you turn the bass amps down about 3db (mark them so you know where they were) the drive rack would do that any way, it's because standing waves set up in the room and add to ach other. The DR will still probably cut some of the bass, so you'll have to set that by ear. Get the sound as loud you will play which means the inputs are NOT clipping(which is unlikely unless you have no headroom .. watch the input meters) Run a pass with the auto EQ...after it's done with the process, and you exit the the Auto EQ, first press the preset button till the GEQ shows up. Now, note what the Auto EQ has done...Even with the bass 3db or more down it probably cut the bass (if you have good subs) Turn the subs back up.. and use your ears to set the eq for the subs. also note any fully cut HF area bands those are very probably reflected cancellations...use your ears on those too, but return them to some semblance of normalcy first. Again anything below 120 hz should not be done by ear. Once you get to know the system and the Auto EQ proclivities you can start to see patterns in rooms, and that is where were headed...Play somethng through the system that is very good and full range.. I like things like Steve Earl, Dread Zeppelin, Steely Dan... and see how it sounds, remember that the final judge is your ear... the system should be closer to flat, and may sound different but give it a chance, your now listening to a system thats got all the frequencies at equal energy...

Store that preset...put it in a location you can find easily, and name it. This is a FLAT reference preset and should work in even difficult rooms. It is also useful in seeing what room is doing to the sound... BUTthat is something that you will need to work with and take samples at a few places at least and get a idea of what is happening at different locations. You can then season the sound to taste if you wish and store that in a different location... Make sure to leave the flat preset alone.

When you start feeling like you have a handle on that start substituting what the GEQ does with the PEQ's Remember to UNDO the GEQ stuff when you use the PEQ's to do what they did. This will clean the sound up even more...
Try those things...
G

vjjustinallen

Message send to you Gadget!

BTW, I do see the principles of the reflection from autoEQ.

In turning the subs down by 3db, how do you measure that? Also in playing with the auto eq I set my volume knobs at about 75% all the way up and the rta pink noise at 0 from -20.


Should I be setting the volume knobs until I see clipping?

Gadget

My alter ego is Gary, and he thinks HE is the real me.. but we both jnow he has no life...

Do the Auto EQ as I suggested, but don't change the sub level... set the level of the auto EQ as close to your performance level as possible.

I sent you an email. In the email find the attached .dwp file. Right click on it and detach it to the desktop. Open the GUI and have the 260 attached and communicating... right click on the top blue bar.. the one that says DriveRack 260...from the drop down menu find 'Import\" and click on that... locate the .dwp file on the desktop, and click open... that will load the .dwp file into the 260. check out the changes, you have PEQ's, delay, and I turned on the AFS...I did them from the frequency plots provided by EV on their site.

Save the setup to another preset and then send me the .dwp of the product.

Gadget.. er Gary

BTW that file from EV is USELESS.. less than useless..FODER.. chuck it!

vjjustinallen

Gary,

First and foremost, thanks! Also the info on the EV file sent to me BY the head tech at EV gave me a chuckle....makes me wonder if they just really wanted me to buy their version of the 260.

One question before I start this. My cabling...I have the output 1 and 2 going to one amp and 3-4 going to the other amp. 1 is for my left top and 2 is my right top, 3 for my left sub and 4 for my right sub.

Does this need to be taken into account anywhere?

Gadget

That's all routed when you set up the crossover...I'm not sure you ever said.. is this a disco application? you have done a gain structure haven't you?
G

vjjustinallen

By disco I am assuming a club using CD's (or in my case videos) yes it is. Now then, you speak a language that uses words I have heard before...but arranged in a unique style


a gain structure???


grin, thanks!!


(it's not my fault I'm an idiot...I listened to dbx's marketing sales pitch)

vjjustinallen

So Gadget has set me to a task which will be done on Friday evening. Between then and now I wanted to talk about the venue I am going in.

Large room (do not have the exact dimensions) so let me describe it the best I can.

The point of view is standing on the stage looking out. My placement on the stage will be front center.

Stage: 22 feet wide by 15 feet deep
The stage is about 4 feet off the floor and made of wood. It does not move

Dance floor:
20 feet wide by 18 feet deep

Directly across from the stage, on the other side of the dance floor, is the sound booth (for bands)...it covers 1/2 of the width of the dance floor.

Now for the rest of the room. These are approx numbers here but it's a big venue. I have been told that when packed it can hold close to 2000 people.

Behind the sound booth is about 40 feet to the wall.
There is about 20 feet of space on the right side of the stage running about 30 feet from stage to far wall
On the left side of the stage is a space that is approx 60 x 40 I guess...it's big. Now I know that my speakers cannot fill this entire room...but it is bigger than the system they usually use for DJ's.

My initial placement idea was this:

Option 1:
stack the dual 15's with horn on top of 1 18\" sub and place tem on either side of the stage (on top of the stage)

In doing some reading that Gadget assigned to me, this may have several issues with it...one, the horns would be up approx 10 feet high, maybe 12 feet high...and I lose the sub coupling effect.

Option 2:
Place the mids/high on the stage (far left and right) and place the subs together on the floor in the center against the stage. My concern about this is that people will stand on the subs and I am not sure that I am comfortable with that.

So, lots of verbage and I hope that I was able to \"paint the picture\" for everyone. I look forward to your thoughts!!

Dra

I'd go with option #2. \"Decorate\" the sub. so no one stands on them.

May I suggest a #3? This may not work if the room if full (beyond the width of the dance floor), but may anyway. Subs together on the floor. Tops together in center (splayed until their dispersion angles just meet). This couples the low mids and no one is likely to stand on subs.
Just a thought.

DRA

vjjustinallen

Let's assume I place the subs together on the floor against the front of the stage and I place the Tops about 10 feet away on top of the stage.

How do you EQ that? If you are supposed to run the RTA mic about 8-10 feet away and put the mic on height between the top of the mid and the bottom of the horn...and the sub is 10 feet away and 6 feet lower

What is that going to RTA as?

Dra

Just so I'm clear... When I said \"together\" I meant side by side (touching)and fanned a bit.

Anyway to your RTA question.
The info that you will get from the subs is useless when inside a structure (anything with any wall to give boundries). Actually the Auto EQ is no good under 160 (ish) hz and above 700 (ish) hz. I don't believe that a near field reading will work if the components are not the same distance from the source. The reading will show a 6db drop every time the distance (difference) is doubled.
For example: Speaker A is 10 ft from mic. Speaker B is 5 ft from mic. Speaker B is +6db louder (at the mic) than speaker A. If Speaker A is moved to 20 ft, then Speaker B is +12db louder than Speaker A. I suppose you could do as you propose and do the math. The distance to the sub would be measured straight line to the mic. You'll have to compensate for the distance loss (adjust down the closer, or turn up the farther).

DRA

vjjustinallen

Dra wrote:

Just so I'm clear... When I said "together" I meant side by side (touching)and fanned a bit.

So you are saying put the subs on the floor against the stage and then put the dual 15's with horn on top of the subs and turn the tops at (making this angle up) 45 degrees from each other so the sound goes out in a "V" formation.

Just trying to get a picture in my mind and see if that is it. I actually haven't seen that type of set-up before.

I was gonna place the tops on the stage and angle then in a bit so the that "convergence of sound" would meet just past the sound board area at teh far end of the floor.

sigh...I have a lot to learn about placement.

Gadget

What Dra is trying to do is gat a \"center cluster type setup, but off to one side.. I know I couldn't get away with that very often, but you could put the subs on one side with the tops and run them as a mono block and still run a main on either side.. The placement in fron of the stage and together woud be best but i know your afraid they will climb on them...Aren't you there on stage to dissuade them from climbing on them anyway? Couldn't you vertically stack them so they're so high they can't.. You could have done the indoor close proximity method we discussed..you know..but outdoors is better..
Been extremely nice here.. 66 degree's and sunny.. I just got back from riding..

Gary

Dra

You can still put the tops on the stage at the edge if you wish for more height.

The EV's have a 80 deg H dispersion.
Place the 2 top cabs side by side. From behind the speakers turn the right speaker clockwise to the right (redundant) 40 deg and turn the left speaker counter-clockwise to the left 40 deg. The rear of the 2 cabs should be touching still. The left speaker is facing left and the right speaker is facing right. Together you are covering 160 deg. This is the best way to get even coverage without dead spots.

There is nothing wrong with split stacks, it is what I use. You seemed concerned with a few issues and the center stack addresses those issues. The main problem with the center stack is that no matter where you are on the dance the sound comes from one location, instead of more of a wrapped feeling. No set-up is perfect. You just have to make smart decisions on what is important to you.

DRA

vjjustinallen

OK, so I talked with the venue and I am more comfortable about their plan to deal with dancers on the subs.

So, now my plan it to put the subs on the floor and couple them. To me that means they will be side by side and about 1 foot from the stage with the speaker grills facing forward.

I would like to place the tops on the stage. This space between the top of the sub cabinet and the bottom of the top cabinet would be about 2 feet.

So, now placement on the tops. Putting them in-line with the subs places them right in front of me, which doesn't work. Would it work if I placed them split about 6 feet of either side of the subs?

or I can go wider out if I need to.

Gadget

See, Dra, this precludes stereo separation, but makes for a really seamless sound in the venue.. but only if it's mono...this works great if the speakers are flown in a center cluster...but .. for Stereo...

Place the speakers on either side of the stage as far apart as you feel comfortable.. realize that the closer together they are the more interaction there will be where the patterns overlap... this means that if you move around in the coverage area.. where the patterns overlap there will be nulls, nulls are cancellations... the SOUND disappears...for certain frequencies...and modes, modes are low frequency coupling that will INCREASE the bass in certain areas where the patterns intersect...this can be addressed by putting the subs together... in the center is best.. on either side will work, with a little creative placement. If you must.. place the subs on both sidse... BUT you will get a power alley... RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE where there will be super bass, and as you walk across the room parallel to the stage you will have spots where the bass DISAPPEARS.. and a foot or so away it's there and a foot farther the bass WILL BE LOUD AS HELL.. and so on.. In the READ ME FIRST section all this and more is covered by posts, or links...You;ll find out why the rule of thumb is less than 8 inches or more than 8 feet fro subs from any boundary...

If your going to run stereo, and you need to cover the dance floor and the audience ... get the speakers far enough apart to get separation, but close enough to cover the room...you'll have coverage problems, and interactions.. but oh well...Do what you have to do and learn how to deal with the problems as best you can...We do...

Gadget

Dra

I've set up 10 ft, 40 ft, 70 ft. They all work.

If you put the top cabs firing stright ahead with these gaps (distance between) there will be a triangular hole that gets no direct sound in the center.

Gap Point of Triangle Hole from stage (away)
6' 5'
10' 7'
14' 10'
18' 12'
22' 14'

Cross firing of coarse changes all of this. Remember, you are deal with 40 deg in each direction.

Now for the vertical dispersion. Let assume that no one will be less than 5' tall. if the floor fills up to the front line of the sub then you need to pull back 2' fron the stage. If it fills to the stage then pull back to 4'.

Now combine.

Gap @ 2'back Point of Triangle Hole from stage (away)
6' 3'
10' 5'
14' 8'
18' 10'
22' 12'

Gap @ 2'back Point of Triangle Hole from stage (away)
6' 1'
10' 3'
14' 6'
18' 8'
22' 10'


One last thing, for every action there is a reaction.
With the speakers back 4 ft, you lose about 6 db of loudness (potential).
From the front of the dance floor to the rear you drop 18db. Go another 24' and drop another 6db (24db down).


DRA