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X-Over Settings Help...

bchaconbchacon Posts: 22
edited December 2008 in Configuration Wizard
Hello,

Hope everyone is having a great Holiday!!

I'm trying to setup our DriveRack 260 using a 2 x 4 template. My issue is trying to set the proper X-over settings.

Here are my speakers and their specs:

Top - PAS T1500
50Hz to 20 kHz

Sub - EAW LA-400's
45Hz to 250 Hz

Can I get some recommendations at to where to set the x-over point. I currently have it sitting around the 100 Hz range.

Thank You!!

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    If you had read the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING you would know that we need ALL the pertinent info in order to help...
    Speakers with number and models.. which you gave
    Amps number and model...not provided
    Mixer.. not provided
    Purpose.. live music... Rock? Jazz? Bluegrass?...DJ..karaoke ...not provided
    venue size..not provided...

    You get the idea right? there are good reasons for the necessity of the info...
    Also you could learn a LOT by reading that section...
    gadget
  • Gadget wrote:
    If you had read the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING you would know that we need ALL the pertinent info in order to help...
    Speakers with number and models.. which you gave
    Amps number and model...not provided
    Mixer.. not provided
    Purpose.. live music... Rock? Jazz? Bluegrass?...DJ..karaoke ...not provided
    venue size..not provided...

    You get the idea right? there are good reasons for the necessity of the info...
    Also you could learn a LOT by reading that section...
    gadget

    Yes, you're right. I should have done some reading, my apologies.

    Let me be more specific...

    SUBS:

    Frequency Response (1 W @ 1m)
    ±3 dB 45 Hz to 250 Hz
    -10 dB 40 Hz
    Axial Sensitivity (dB SPL, 1 Watt @ 1m)
    Sub Bass 107
    Impedance (Ohms)
    Sub Bass 8
    Power Handling, AES Standard (Watts)
    Sub Bass 500
    Calculated Maximum Output (dB SPL)
    Sub Bass Peak 140.0
    Sub Bass Long Term 134.0
    Nominal Coverage Angle/-6 dB points (degrees)
    Horizontal 180
    Vertical 180
    Recommended High-Pass Frequency
    24 dB/Octave 32

    HIGHS:
    PAS T-1500
    Frequency Response 50Hz to 20 kHz
    Power Handling 200/800 Watts
    Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
    Sensitivity 1 Watt, 1 Meter
    Crossover Frequency 3 kHz
    LF Driver TS 1580C
    HF Driver Phenolic diaphragm compression driver

    AMPS:

    High: QSC RMX 1450
    Subs: QSC PLX 1608

    Music Genre: Pop/Rock

    Venue: Church (about 3000 Sq ft.)

    I also read some posts here stipulating that it was recommended that when auto eq'ing that I should NOT place the mic evenly between the speakers but instead position the mic directly in front of the mains (subs are underneath the stage).

    Thanks for your help!!
  • Gadget wrote:
    If you had read the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING you would know that we need ALL the pertinent info in order to help...
    Speakers with number and models.. which you gave
    Amps number and model...not provided
    Mixer.. not provided
    Purpose.. live music... Rock? Jazz? Bluegrass?...DJ..karaoke ...not provided
    venue size..not provided...

    You get the idea right? there are good reasons for the necessity of the info...
    Also you could learn a LOT by reading that section...
    gadget

    Forgot one other thing....

    MIXER: Mackie 32-4 VLZ Pro
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Thanks, I couldn't find any PAS T1500.. T 1540, but the specs don't quite match up...Your very underpowered.. that is why I wanted to know what amps you have.. Under theses conditions I'D:

    Set the HPF for the subs @ 45-50 hz..BW18 even though they can go much lower.. you don't have the power..

    Set the LPF @ 120hz LR24..

    Now on the tops set the HPF @ 120hz LR24. you could set up a LPF if you have HF reflection problems.. there I'd go [email protected] 16K

    As for the Auto EQ you didn't read the FAQ's? There we discuss the merits of the Auto EQ process, and under very good conditions I post how the Auto EQ process CAN work with the Mic in the middle between the speakers.. but note that the mic is on the ceiling...aimed AT the ceiling...with only 1/8th\" to 1/4 \" between the ceiling and the mic. This will minimize the reflected cancellations...
    Note:modes (Low frequency standing waves) will most likely wreck havoc with the LF frequencies.

    Multiple locations that are averaged would be best...

    Gadget
  • Gadget wrote:
    Thanks, I couldn't find any PAS T1500.. T 1540, but the specs don't quite match up...Your very underpowered.. that is why I wanted to know what amps you have.. Under theses conditions I'D:

    Set the HPF for the subs @ 45-50 hz..BW18 even though they can go much lower.. you don't have the power..

    Set the LPF @ 120hz LR24..

    Now on the tops set the HPF @ 120hz LR24. you could set up a LPF if you have HF reflection problems.. there I'd go [email protected] 16K

    As for the Auto EQ you didn't read the FAQ's? There we discuss the merits of the Auto EQ process, and under very good conditions I post how the Auto EQ process CAN work with the Mic in the middle between the speakers.. but note that the mic is on the ceiling...aimed AT the ceiling...with only 1/8th" to 1/4 " between the ceiling and the mic. This will minimize the reflected cancellations...
    Note:modes (Low frequency standing waves) will most likely wreck havoc with the LF frequencies.

    Multiple locations that are averaged would be best...

    Gadget

    Thanks so much for your patience and knowledge.

    Two things...

    Power for the SUBS... do you think purchasing another PLX 1602 and bridging them would give us what we need?

    Secondly, Auto EQ...
    Being that our church is an A-frame and getting to the top of the ceiling to place the Mic is... well, scary, what other recommendations would you have??

    -Brian
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
    Ah... but my young padawan you failed the test...yet again...The floor works as well as the ceiling... as long as no one walks ON the mic.... In the case of a church a bit of creativity may even be in order (like one of those heavy tables placed in the aisle... and the mic using THAT surface to avoid being below the pew's... ):shock: (see \"The new indoor method\" and interpolate that to the distant method....)when trying to auto any space that is symmetrical, it is often pertinent to measure one side and apply that to both... that then eliminates the multiple paths to the mic cancellations...however, when your space is 'a' symmetric it is preferred to do each side separate, and run them in stereo/dual mono to allow each speaker to interact properly with each side... Now.. remember this, you CANNOT (nope, no way.. can't be done so don't even try) :lol: EQ a room... you can only attempt to EQ the speakers with respect to the room...Placement works best, treatment of the space is next best and as a LAST RESORT.... Eq the speakers to minimize reflections and modes and nulls.

    Further simplification would either require my presence, or some pictures... diagrams with measurements and an idea what treatments are used... surfaces... etc etc etc... but fear not the diligent have gotten stunning results... even WITHOUT my presence... 8)

    As for the amps thing...I also need more info about just what this church does... as in is this a full BLOWN rock church.. with 133 db in your face rock.. or a minimal combo.. usual volunteer talent mishmash as most churches are.. or something in between? What problems are you having with the sound now?

    You still have not answered my question about the PAS tops.. I'm VERY familiar with the TOCtops... but NOT the 'T' series ... and I didn't see any 1500's on the site.. did you mean the T1540's? If not be more specific please...

    gadget
  • Master Gadget,

    I'm afraid if I respond with \"I'm trying\", your next line will be... \"do or do not, there is no try!!\"

    With regards to the Auto EQ.... The room is has been treated pretty well. Lots of fabric panels on stage, low rug. Not a lot of hard points except the wood ceiling. Side walls have window treatments and back wall has large fabric panel.

    Music is pretty intense. Band consists of...

    Drums
    Trap set surrounded by mini panels with fabric.
    All drums mic'ed with two mics on booms stands for cymbals

    Electric Guitar
    Music Lead
    Has his own pedal board
    We mike his roland amp

    Bass
    Bass player
    We mic his cabinet (mesa boogie)

    Acoustic Guitar
    Straight into DI box

    Keybaords (Yamaha Electric)
    Stereo into DI's

    Lead Singer
    Worship Leader
    Wireless SM58

    Backup Vocals
    Three vocals all on SM58's

    How's that??
  • The reason you're not finding them on the site is because they have been discontinued.

    Here is a link that I found. It was the one I used to get the specs off that I posted to you previously.

    http://www.pas-america.com/files/dis_target.pdf

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Ah... but you see... you DO transcend the mortal world and have in fact seen the force for what it is...You know that there is no try.. so then we can move forward with your training...

    I guess here the problem becomes that we have once again run up against a problem in the information highway... since you said \"SUBS\" I have to 'assume' oops.. almost slipped on some excrement here... there are 2...? If so 2, 8 ohm subs run on a 1602 in bridged mono mode offers 1600 watts into a 4 ohm ... minimum load... that's 800 watts per SPEAKER... while in bridged 8 ohm you have 1100 watts... you have to remember that to get twice as loud you need 10 times the power...so another 300 watts per speaker will help.. and there is the power consumption issue to resolve (we need MORE Edison for this application) that will not even elicit another 2 db of bass.. so... I would say no...another 1602 won't give you enough to warrant the money.. (in my opinion... anyone else wanna come forward? hmmm) ummm... you are running 4 ohm bridged with 2 subs right?

    All for now..
    G man
  • ummmm....NOPE!!

    We're running the 1602 in Stereo, left and right channels, one to each sub.

    The DR 260 is using a 2 x4 setting
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    OOPS...QSC 1602 300watts @ 8 ohms stereo....that's 300 watts per driver...
    QSC 1602 bridged mono...1600 watts... @ 4 ohms that's 800 watts per driver...That will make a difference...
    Those subs you have can take well over 1200 watts.. ALL DAY LONG...with higher peaks. I have the LABsubs which are a very similar sub in performance, with a whole lot lower price tag...Mine are 2, 12\" long throw woofers in a 45X45X24 inch (11 foot horn length) ass kickin sub that will open your eyes about sub bass :shock: :shock: :shock: down to the 20 hz range in groups of 4...UNREAL... but back to your setup...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,844
    Think of your available power as a ratio instead of preferred power needed. If you bridge the sub amp (1602), you'll have over 2 times the power in your subs, as the tops.

    DRA
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