No smoke... well..... maybe
Dra
Posts: 3,777
Well to rehash my situation.
My Yorkville 400/800/1600w subs that were popping when receiving 750w of rap music but not loud because I moved the HPF from 45hz to 50 hz. I did as some at PSW suggested and planned to moved the filter down to 40hz because the majority of the sub content was in 30 & 40hz bands. I first found a song that had that bandwidth hitting and I did a 10 second loop of the boom, boom, boom, boom. No amp clipping and limiter set to hard limit with max peak (DR 260) at 78 volts (80 volts is max for speaker). Connected 1 speaker and brought thelevel up and then lowered the filter to 40 hz BW24. This added an amazing amount of increase to the output. Swept the filter back up to 50hz and down again. Did this for about 2 or 3 minutes, then plugged in the 2nd sub to the other side of the amp to make sure that it wasn't just 1 of them that was popping before. Both sounded great. Then I caught wiff of a sweet, but soured smell. :?
I turned down the music and the smell mostly went away. I thought the neighbors dog had dropped one nearby. Then at low volumes the music (only subs connected) was raspy / buzzy.
It went away (mostly) as the volume went back up, but could tell that it was just masked a bit. Everything works but sounds horrible and the lower the volume the worse it sounds. :evil: :?: :?: I removed the grill and pushed the cone in. You could hear a sliding sound. Not a lot but like rubbing your finger on a table.
Obviously they are toast. Why?
Now... I obviously have to do something, because I have no subs (working). I am NOT under gun to resolve this, so I have time to discuss options. Money IS a factor. Recones will cost $400 (total).
These subs are used for primarily for 2 types of events. Middle & High School dances / proms / etcs, so rap music in gyms and ballrooms. The other events are corporate type events that include meet and greet background music, lots of speaking, and talent portions that include singing and dancing to tracks, some live instraments (usually acoustic guitar(s), piano, sax). I never foresee having to mic a dum kit or a bass rig.
So I am not asking much. Just sonically pure for the performance stuff, and loud and low for the dance stuff. The corporate stuff must look professional and low profile is a plus.
Options:
Recone the RCF's designed for the box ($400).
Replace with Yorkville B&C replacements ($620).
Replace with similar parametered drivers.
Buy new boxes.
Build new boxes.
Some combo of the above. This brings up a question. Is different design or driver size really a big deal for subs? Can output delay be used to match up wave fronts to work together?
4 cabs would be nice, if I can swing it.
Amps available for use:
Yorkville AP3400 (old 4040) 750w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 8 ohm only)
Yorkville Ap3000 (old 4020) 475w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 4 ohm - 2400w)
QSC PLX3102 600w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 4 ohm - 3100w)
QSC PLX3102 - currently used for (4) 200/400/800w top cabs
HELP!
DRA
My Yorkville 400/800/1600w subs that were popping when receiving 750w of rap music but not loud because I moved the HPF from 45hz to 50 hz. I did as some at PSW suggested and planned to moved the filter down to 40hz because the majority of the sub content was in 30 & 40hz bands. I first found a song that had that bandwidth hitting and I did a 10 second loop of the boom, boom, boom, boom. No amp clipping and limiter set to hard limit with max peak (DR 260) at 78 volts (80 volts is max for speaker). Connected 1 speaker and brought thelevel up and then lowered the filter to 40 hz BW24. This added an amazing amount of increase to the output. Swept the filter back up to 50hz and down again. Did this for about 2 or 3 minutes, then plugged in the 2nd sub to the other side of the amp to make sure that it wasn't just 1 of them that was popping before. Both sounded great. Then I caught wiff of a sweet, but soured smell. :?
I turned down the music and the smell mostly went away. I thought the neighbors dog had dropped one nearby. Then at low volumes the music (only subs connected) was raspy / buzzy.
It went away (mostly) as the volume went back up, but could tell that it was just masked a bit. Everything works but sounds horrible and the lower the volume the worse it sounds. :evil: :?: :?: I removed the grill and pushed the cone in. You could hear a sliding sound. Not a lot but like rubbing your finger on a table.Obviously they are toast. Why?
Now... I obviously have to do something, because I have no subs (working). I am NOT under gun to resolve this, so I have time to discuss options. Money IS a factor. Recones will cost $400 (total).
These subs are used for primarily for 2 types of events. Middle & High School dances / proms / etcs, so rap music in gyms and ballrooms. The other events are corporate type events that include meet and greet background music, lots of speaking, and talent portions that include singing and dancing to tracks, some live instraments (usually acoustic guitar(s), piano, sax). I never foresee having to mic a dum kit or a bass rig.
So I am not asking much. Just sonically pure for the performance stuff, and loud and low for the dance stuff. The corporate stuff must look professional and low profile is a plus.
Options:
Recone the RCF's designed for the box ($400).
Replace with Yorkville B&C replacements ($620).
Replace with similar parametered drivers.
Buy new boxes.
Build new boxes.
Some combo of the above. This brings up a question. Is different design or driver size really a big deal for subs? Can output delay be used to match up wave fronts to work together?
4 cabs would be nice, if I can swing it.
Amps available for use:
Yorkville AP3400 (old 4040) 750w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 8 ohm only)
Yorkville Ap3000 (old 4020) 475w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 4 ohm - 2400w)
QSC PLX3102 600w 8 ohm stereo (bridge to 4 ohm - 3100w)
QSC PLX3102 - currently used for (4) 200/400/800w top cabs
HELP!
DRA
0
Comments
As for the rest of your questions..
Too much power.. according to the guys @ PSW.. more than 2X the rated amp output was sent to the drivers. They say that the drivers can take square waves all day long WITHIN THE LIMITS of the driver.. you used too much power, OR you had the amp sending more than twice it's output rating...
As for new drivers there are benefits to that route.. ALL ceramic magnets loose strength when warm, and regain MOST after they cool..BUT all magnets loose their strength over time.. no ALL but some, Plus newer speakers have better tolerances...thus better specs, and better sound. As for the speaker being 4\" voice coil.. I'd like to have you measure the cone where it meets the spider...
Yes it's critical to replace the driver with something very similar spec wise...
If your adventurous, and a decent carpenter... you might consider reconing with the aftermarket baskets...selling or building another pair.. or building 4 of the Fane boxes I spec in the FAQ section...
Sorry for your loss..
G
We'll be setting up our rig tomorrow for some more fine tuning. I'll throw some rap at the subs to see how they cope. I'm sure that the two we have will cope well enough but I have a feeling that it'll take four of them to do rap music well. We're going to build another two as we still run out of bottom end towards the end of the night when we're pushing it and the room seems to eat up the low end. At the moment we're running two subs with 1500W each, and two SM15s that I've bi-amped, running 550W to the mids and 550W to the horns each. Anyway, I'll let you know what happens.
Robbo
RCF L18/815K is the speaker in question.
I hadn't even considered copying these boxes, and getting them to match (grills and all) to the originals in a 100% lit room for all to see.... :?
What about my mix-n-match subs question? Could I make a pair of the 15\" (or 18\") Fanes play well with these \"manifold\" type 18\" if each is on it's on output from the 260?
DRA
I just checked..and those kits are available... and $75 plus shipping...I could probably even walk you through re-coning them yourself...It's NOT that difficult...the only issue would be the glue and it's available...
G-man
Gadget, I thought that there was a special fixture required for centering the magnet.
DRA
G
Is this similar to what you have (instructions)? It does not mention the shimming of the magnet???
After looking at these and seeing that they use 2 part epoxy, I recognized the smell I smelled. I've used a soldering iron to brittle-ize / melt epoxy when having to remove components embedded in it. It's burnt epoxy.
DRA
DRA
and no the smell is the lacquer on the wire and the stuff they use to bond the wire to the coil former, and the former (usually kapton) or aluminum, but the aluminum ones don't stink as bad...
So you going to try it?
G
Robbo
DRA
DRA
I have never had a problem with after market kits... I use them often on JBL speakers, as the kits for them are usually almost $200 my cost...Geez I love JBL :?
As for LS+ as I said I can't get to them till Monday...
G
I found at least three sites with instructions. All slightly different, but for all practical... were the same and none mentioned any of these.
DRA
With the kits I speced for you you get original MFG, and all assembled, all you will need to do is center the voice coil, glue down the spider, and the surround, then the cap and gasket (looks like the gasket doesn't come with the kit?) (I can get the gaskets if needed and I have the tinsel as well)
G
From Reconekits.com that you provided...
Thank you for your contact. The McKenzie RCF L18-851/KN kit will also work for the RCF L18-851. We do not have any information on the L18-851/K kit. Yes all of the kits on our website come with shims, glues, instructions, etc.
Sales Team
www.reconekits.com
Thanks,
DRA
I wish you could have heard the system @ the Firehouse.. it was really something! The low extension when the building started to move...was absolutely UNREAL...When someone comes up in a panic and says...DUDE the FLOOR is MOVING!\" :shock: :shock: :shock: you gotta smile
You should have seen the expression on the bar owners face when I said I was building 2 more for the bar :shock: :shock: :shock: \"Ya right\"
Any way you look at it you need to get these back working and the cheaper the better.. THEN decide if you should sell them and make something new... or stay with those.
G
Any real world tips that aren't really in the instructions. Tools, cleaners, etc?
DRA
Practice putting the shim in first and sliding the voice coil over it down into place....Put the glue for the spider on in a bead in the center of the raceway....then with the shim in place slide the cone assembly down till it touches the glue and flattens it out. **** MAKE SUR YOU ORIENT THE TINSEL LEADS TOWARD THE CONNECTION POSTS**** pump the cone in and out a few times pressing it well below the normal sitting point...it will spring back up (unless the shim is REALLY tight .. which has happened...try and get a centered surround on the upper casting and try and get the spider flat after you depress it. this will help make sure that the voice coil is perpendicular to the magnet structure... over the next few minutes insure that the spider stays down against the magnet raceway by pressing the spider against the raceway.. with a plumbing acid brush (you'll probably need at least 2) roll the cone edge away a little at a time and paint the surround glue under the surround... when and only when it's all covered, then go ahead and press it down.when it's all down, pump the cone a bit again to insure you don't hear rasping..(again.. unless its really tight) if not form time to time make sure the spider and surround stay down till dried.
allow to dry thoroughly... then pull the shim. Now take the cap and get it as centered and level as possible and then take a sharpie and mark that point for a place to put that cap back when you have put the glue on. Put a small bead of glue on the cap and place it carefully on the mark you just made. Glue the gasket down and solder the tinsel leads or crimp them depending on what they did.. WARNING... tinsel is a SOLDER WICK, so heat ONLY as much as needed and use only a very small amount of solder! Make sure BEFORE you remove the old cone that you pay attention to all the details.. how much slack is in the tinsel leads...did they bond the tinsel to the cone in any special way...compare the distance from the top of the ire on the voice coil to the spider and make sure its the same (the coil overhang...thats how much it sits above or below the pile piece.. thats the metal plate in the gap)
(note when pumping the cone try and do it near the bottom of the cone with equidistant pressure on at least two points... avoid bending the cone at all... if possible)
That's about it...
G
Should the spider or surround glue \"expose\" itself on the edges? What diameter bead is best for these?
You mentioned before that coating the surrounds may need to be done. If they are pre-coated they will be very tacky, correct? If not what do I coat them with? Outside only?
I looked on YOUTUBE and was supprised that there were not any reconings there. There was a \"How it's made\" segment that was helpful to see the relative unconcern of the proccess, although it was sketchy (not all steps shown). Limited time due to the machining of the magnet and assembly to the basket.
DRA
Depends on the width of the landing, doesn't need to be just use enough to insure a good bond, but be sure the landings are CLEAN but NOT polished (in other words don't use a polisher).. just scrape it carefully with a razor blade or Stanley knife blade...
I would assume the surround will NOT be pre coated...for better bonding on the landing. Once the glue dries, coat only the top of the edge using the acid brush. I usually put the gasket on and paint all the way to the gasket to insure a good seal.. the stuff will be like clear rubber a single good coat is sufficient...
\" Limited time due to the machining of the magnet and assembly to the basket. \" HUH?
G
The Discovery show \"How it's made\" did a start to finish speaker build. Sawing the iron plates, groving the coil gap, glueing and bolting the magnet assembly to the basket and attaching the cone assembly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN0tmyyC ... re=related
DRA
G
Got the kits in. I need a 1\" brush for the surround treatment. What do you recommend? Foam, natural, synthetic?
Thanks
G
DRA
I would not shy away from doing it again.
Of all the people on the forum Gadget is THE ONE.
Gadget you are da bomb. The ONE BOMB.
The Uni-bomber? 8)
DRA
G
To be honest they sound a little raspy. Not like a rubbing coil, but like a heavy smoker. Odd. It could be that they are on casters and were on uneven ground. Maybe a caster was vibrating. I am probably hearing something that is not there.
DRA