Auto EQ... Some experimentation
bchacon
Posts: 22
I recently asked for some help with X-over settings for our DriveRack 260. I received great feedback from Gadget and have been trying to execute on that.
Based on his feedback and FAQ posts regarding Auto EQ, I set off to try and make a few runs at our church. One of the interesting things I noticed and had been told by Gadget was that he placed the RTA mic microns from the ceiling. Literally, aiming the mic straight into the ceiling!! He explained this positioning was ideal for avoiding any reflections and, therefore, getting the best Auto EQ.
So, first things first, here's a picture of our church taken from the sound booth. The speakers are; Mains - PAS T1500's Subs - EAW LA400's(underneath stage).
When corresponding with Gadget, I proclaimed that it would be quite difficult, and scary, to try and place the RTA mic up on the ceiling of the church. He responded by saying that I could get a similar result by using the floor and/or a table which would accomplish the same results. So, I hope this is what he meant (be assured, if he reads this, he'll let me know).
For comparison purposes, I also took readings with the RTA mic positioned pointing directly into the Main speakers at different heights and angles.
The results:
Gadget was right. The Auto EQ with the RTA mic shooting straight down (or up in his case) on a flat surface provided the most satisfying results. One specific thing I noticed was that the higher frequencies really go pushed but the subs were definitely there when I put on some demo music to check out the sound.
If anyone has any comments or recommendations, I welcome them.
-Brian
Based on his feedback and FAQ posts regarding Auto EQ, I set off to try and make a few runs at our church. One of the interesting things I noticed and had been told by Gadget was that he placed the RTA mic microns from the ceiling. Literally, aiming the mic straight into the ceiling!! He explained this positioning was ideal for avoiding any reflections and, therefore, getting the best Auto EQ.
So, first things first, here's a picture of our church taken from the sound booth. The speakers are; Mains - PAS T1500's Subs - EAW LA400's(underneath stage).
When corresponding with Gadget, I proclaimed that it would be quite difficult, and scary, to try and place the RTA mic up on the ceiling of the church. He responded by saying that I could get a similar result by using the floor and/or a table which would accomplish the same results. So, I hope this is what he meant (be assured, if he reads this, he'll let me know).
For comparison purposes, I also took readings with the RTA mic positioned pointing directly into the Main speakers at different heights and angles.
The results:
Gadget was right. The Auto EQ with the RTA mic shooting straight down (or up in his case) on a flat surface provided the most satisfying results. One specific thing I noticed was that the higher frequencies really go pushed but the subs were definitely there when I put on some demo music to check out the sound.
If anyone has any comments or recommendations, I welcome them.
-Brian
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Comments
Therefore, with the room filled with water bags, the sound will be absorbed where it was reflected by the pews in all all directions. The nice thing here is that unlike most older churches here we have fabric covered chairs, but the fact remains that even though the chairs don't reflect the energy, they absorb it like people do either. So we will have different sound with people there.
I would still like to get a close proximity, 1 speaker only, flat frequency response stored to the Driverack for comparison, (like the new indoor method, but garnered using the nearfield proximity method... probably under 4 feet away) and ultimately I figure a better sound that we can work off of.
Thanks for the post!
Gadget
DRA
The auto EQ did push the high frequency range... not egregiously but, specifically, the last two bars. In fact, the last bar was practically pegged.
I'm wondering if I'm experiencing the reflection both of you have mentioned and perhaps a good way to solve it would be to bring my LPF down to 16K per Gadget's previous recommendation.
Can you get your recommendations on this??
Lastly, thanks for all the help you've extended to me. I've been trying to put it to good use.
-Brian
ANY BAND that is either fully CUT or BOOSTED is suspect...
I'd like to see a pass done with one speaker only, with the mic about 4-5 feet out on axis aimed between the woofer and the horn, flat -0- preset, med precision...
Yes, Dra's questions about the aiming issues are pertinent...
The correct way would be for the speaker to be in a center cluster hung just to the front of the stage and splayed so that the horn patterns don't overlap... and angled down so they cover the If those are 90X40 (and I verified that they are) then your going to have a heck of a time keeping the sound off the walls and ceiling/structure......UNFORTUNATELY... those ancient speakers are square boxes so center arraying of them would by difficult...not impossible.. but tough to get right...
Shrillness is a hallmark of the reflected cancellation problem of Auto EQ process.. I had one that corresponded to the clip I used that hung the mic from the ceiling... mine was a 4000 hz cancellation.. which was about 3 1/4\"
Wavelength calculator is here:
http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm so if you get a boosted band at 3.5khz...look at something just under 4 inches away...that is reflecting and arriving just enough out of phase to cancel that frequency...It's not always a total cancellation.. can be some or total.. so anything above about 700 hz is suspect...
Gadget
DRA
Those are draped windows.
The stage is made up of panels but I understand how the horns are shooting off the sides of the wall.
We are in the process of buying new main speakers. We are leaning towards the JBL brand but have not zeroed in on a specific model. I found Gadget's comments with regards to a proper positioning of the main speaker would be in the model of a center array.
Firstly, by placing the speakers in this manner, would it eliminate the reflections I'm getting in the high frequencies?
Secondly, would our choice in speaker help with the type of room. For instance, choosing a JBL model that does not utilize a horn. We're very interested in running stereo for chorus effects, etc, etc. Could we still go with stereo and get a good sound?
I assume Gadget will read this as well. Thanks again for both your input.
-Brian
Gadget,
Again, thanks for the useful information.
To get me by this morning, I'm going to lower the LPF down to the 16K you previously recommended based on the possibility of reflection. Hopefully, that will give me a little more control and a warmer sound.
I will try and run the auto eq as you described after the services are complete.
Gotta' run. I'll get back to you.
-Brian
Wait, are you by-amping the tops (or going to)? Or is that someone else?
When you narrow down your speaker purchase list, be sure to run it by us (Gadget), may save a headache.
DRA
Most JBL speakers in your (projected.. I guessed) price range are not good...I am not a big JBL fan anyway till you get into a higher bracket ($1000 each minimum) even then the bang for the buck is easily slanted away from the JBL brand...unless you have a bunch of brand snobs, or obviously trying to impress someone with words alone...
Yes a center cluster would be a good way to go. How long is that room anyway? If you were to get a speaker with a 40X60 horn pattern, and a cabinet is meant for arraying, that has a rotatable horn you could use 3 in the center cluster, use the 40 degree as a horizontal throw and have 120 degree coverage, do a L-C-R setup and use the efx in the L/R speakers and have the CTR for punching to the back of the room... This would keep the sound off the walls and ceiling, have better coverage, and less interaction. With three fullrange speakers 3 amp channels would be needed for this, and if Bi amped then 6 for stereo, and 4 for L/R +C.
Something like this:
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
And @ under $800 each a real bargain...This would be the optimum setup for the least money...Also these speakers have certified flying points and are made to do so. Simply taking any speaker and attaching bolts and hoping for the best leaves you open to major lawsuits if the unexpected should happen...
Otherwise you could use a pair in a center cluster and have lesser coverage and performance but still have a far better speaker than you could get for the money.
I have to tell you though there is no substitute for having a qualified sound contractor come in and use EASE software to predict the correct speaker system. This would give you the best results by far... but most of the mid to smaller churches simply cannot afford this option.. that is the reason we offer our expertise .. so that serious mistakes are not made.
Another product that is very good and is less money, is a three way design with a rotatable horn and arrays well, is:
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
Closer to the $500 range...
An alternative for the \"budget system is the :
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
These are least speaker I would recommend but the above would be FAR superior to what you have now, or what you could get in JBL for twice the money...(even for the D.A.S. speakers..)
These are also all usable in fullrange, Some are bi-amp=able... The Community series have hardware that allows don fills for better front row coverage if necessary (see the links and scroll to the flying hdwr) .
There some better choices ... but invariably much more costly.
BTW when you have a situation where you DON'T have any maxed out frequency bands but have an overall \"shrillness\", you can simply engage a PEQ... say in the 10K area, set a Q of around 1.0 and start with a 4db cut. Then, move the PEQ up and down till the sound smooths out, you can then raise and lower the \"Q\" to further fine tune the sound , and play with the gain to even further dial in the sound... PEQ's work better than GEQ's for this purpose, are cleaner and affect the sound less.
There is something to chew on, and some things you can bring before the church for them to start getting an idea of what they want to do, and what kind of product you can get for the money...In loudspeakers you really can get more for the money. There are lots of other products out there but the idea is to match the speaker to the application, and budget. Try and buy once, cry once...
gadget
Could you reply with the model numbers? Your links only took me to the two logo pages. I do not know what models you are recommending.
Thanks,
Brian
DAS Reference series...RS 12.85
Community:
Verus 32-64
S-1296 or
CPL 43-64 (lowest grade I'd recommend)
I thought these would be direct links...sorry
Gadget
With regards to a center array... though we all agree this would be the optimum setup, we also realize that this installation would require bringing in some experts to both calc the room (EASE) for proper speaker placement (angles, pitch, etc) and then installing the rigging which for all sorts of reasons, the least of which being life and limb, would necessitate experienced riggors. Lastly, we are pursuing a larger church and feel that we will be moving out or building out in approximately two years requiring us to consider the amount of money we invest now.
So, that leads me back to asking you your advice with the assumption that the speakers will probably stay within the general proximity they are now. I would then need to refocus the purchase of your new speakers to incorporate the correct dispersion discussed in previous posts.
With this new information, do you have additional considerations for me??
Thanks,
Brian
setup(future)
This then becomes a better solution since you can add on in the future and live with a great sound for the time being...Win Win...
Gadget
DRA,
Would you happen to know if an illustration of your positioning technique is available to help me understand it a little more?
Secondly, you recommended two dispersion patterns, 60 x 40 or 80 x 50. I think Gadget concurs with your 80 x 50 recommendation since the speakers he's recommending are 80 x 50. Here are the speakers we are considering...
- D.A.S Reference Series 12.85 Price - approx $900 each Gadget's recommendation
- JBL SRX715F Price - $1629.00 each We still have a group of people who like this speaker. This IS within our budget.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=114&MId=3
Third, is there a tool or software package that will tell me how far to toe them in and how far to pitch them down (Currently, the speakers we have are hung evenly. Although they are toed in, they are not pitched down at all). Obviously, I am interested in something relatively easy to learn and that does not cost a large sum of money. How about EASE Jr.?
Thanks again,
Brian
You propose flying the dual 15\" fixed 75 degree pattern speaker? what about the future sanctuary... If you did decide to do it right and have a center cluster what then? a 150 degree pattern will be dumping sound on the walls and that WILL degrade the sound...Why in the word are you considering a dual 15\"? Flying them in a church? Hmmm
Ease is the prediction program, and a sound contractor worth his stuff would plug the different speakers into the program and see what would work best.. that is NOT however an easy (no pun intended) program to learn, and I don't know about Ease Jr...
You didn't say your budget would go that high though...That extra money open up a lot more possibilities... I think the 725 are a BIG mistake...
G
Just had a thought. :shock:
If you have a lazer pointer (or 2) or a lazer level.... then spot marks the spot (edge).
Either way, the \"extention plane\" should start approximately at the throat of the horn (the straight small part) and angle (0 degrees being the center of the cab front to back) the \"pointing device\" 1/2 of the H pattern (H-80 x V-50, for example, 1/2H = 40 deg) and be aligned with the contour of the horn flare. Most horns have multiple angles, so start at the juntion or the exit hole and first flair.
If you lay out the room to scale, draw the cabs to scale with the extended horn lines (30-40 ft) you can \"play\" with coverages from different positions. All this may sound like alot and that precision is extremely important, that you'll mess something up if your off a degree. It's not rocket science.
Hope all my verbage was helpful. Remember, this is conceptual, not a scientific formulation, so use as such.
DRA
Don't forget, if the horn is not rotatable, the cabinet is. Speakers that are flyable will be flyable either way.
DRA
DRA
The Idea here is to get something that is usable in the future should you decide to do it the right way and cluster the FOH speakers...with a non rotatable 725F you can't really horizontal array them, and the pattern becomes 150 degrees wide.. spraying sound on the walls...
How about the EAW MK2364...
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
under $1000 ... available in white...fly ready and with rotatable.. array-able horn... It's EAW... for those brand snobs...High power, full range...
You should lay out an 85deg pattern and see how big that really is...
Here's a poor mans predictor..
use 1/2 the angle against the square...
cut the slot
Assemble
hang/ hold up to predict...
Gadget
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=156&MId=2
This should meet your recommendations... hopefully!!
-Brian
Also, you seem fixated on the 15 inch woofer models? Don't you understand that were trying to get you to see that a 12\" is much more musical and reproduces vocals better? Sure you get a 15\" to go a few hz lower but at the expense of MF clarity...If you want to spend MORE for the same thing, get LESS performance (even though they PAD the specs and I guarantee you will get far far more bang for the buck... AND a smother sounding speaker if you AVOID JBL..).but you seem bound and determined to NOT follow my advice so this will be my final word on this subject...JBL ARE HARSH AND BRITTLE SOUNDING IN THE HIGH FREQUENCIES... especially when pushed... (go to the PSW .. Pro sound web... and search out JBL speakers and you will see.. a good number of the professionals that KNOW.. say the JBL's are harsh and brittle sounding) You have my recommendations...
Gadget
I most assuredly value your advise and did not intend to insult you in anyway.
I am working with a team of people at the church who are slightly swayed by name brands, especially the JBL brand. They believe that in this case they are getting what they pay for. I realize your experience proves that not to be the case. I'm am trying to convince them while at the same time zero in on a solution.
Your previous recommendations, in order, were...
D.A.S.
Community
Knowing that they are willing to spend $1800 per speaker. Is there any other brand that you would recommend??
-Brian
While it is a 15\", it is unique in it's MF reproduction method. 60x60. Flyable and arrayable in 3's. If I read it right, there is rigging hardware available for this, but might not be applicable to your needs (fan and tilt), but customer support could answer that.
The Unity series are probably one of the most loved series on PSW. The have the grandkids over on Christmas eve kind of love.
Well under $1200 from the right place per cab (carpet). Whether you need the processor, would be a good question to post on PSW, but could save you some work.
A committee of \"know nothings\" can be (are) difficult to work with, because they saw a church that had JBL......
MythBusters did a special on dung polishing. Yes you can polish dung to a decent shine, but why spend the time and money on something that after all... is dung. I bet you can order (or make) JBL replacement grill tags.
Is the speaker budget $3600 (2) or $5400 (3)? :shock: Well that's rediculous. Buy overly expensive speaker that may not work in your room, or bring in a designer with SMAART / EASE to recommend (3) $600 speakers that are perfect for your room. Either way, you looking at serious money. But Gadget, is basing his recommendations on real life experience in different rooms and with different speakers. Sometimes less is more.
DRA
A non horn solution (Community CPL 23) would require 4 or maybe even 6 speakers and would do a better job than one on each side in the front with horns...With the right amp those things really sound amazing...These as I said are also NOT a horn loaded speaker, and also has a dual woofer version. This would require some wiring and additional amps to do properly, but with the subs would provide a way better solution to the JBL hanging on the sides...
The center cluster (3) would still be the best solution here, but as you said would require some rigging and someone with that knowledge...
Maybe we should see if that idea flys better with them.. since you have subs that makes the smaller, multiple speaker setup an much better option... Why not run that up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.. I mean if push comes to shove you could always use JBL control series speakers...again... not my first choice...
I've installed a bunch of these CPL series speakers in churches where difficult coverages required multiple speakers for coverage.. and they really sound nice, are small and light and sight lines are obviously preserved well...
If they insist on the same approach..the U 15, as Dra suggested are your best approach, but if in the future they decide the DUH a center cluster is what they want after all a 180 degree spray will have wall reflections If a three speaker cluster is used...Two could do the job.. but as we said you would need to have help for a CTR cluster... in speaker selection, aiming, and hanging...
I think you should convince them... after all that's been said here, that a multiple speaker setup would best serve your interests... more even coverage, you don't need to blow the people out in the front of the church.. it's a safer way to go, and with your sub you will have sufficient sound and the clarity will increase considerably by getting away from those 15\" drivers...
How about some real dimensions for the room?
Let us know what they say...
Gadget
http://www.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8&start=60
DRA
On the recommendation of a couple of people from this forum, I purchased four CPL 27 speakers and a DriveRack 260. Let me give you a little background.
I was asked to write and direct a musical. When I was asked to do this, I was firmly determined to see that the technical audio side of this production was world-class. World-class sound on a less than world-class budget? Yes, that is the situation most of us find ourselves in. So, without a single piece of equipment, I began studying equipment, procedures, processes, etc. to make sure that I didn't drop the ball on the technical sound side of things.
Here's my setup:
Mackie Onyx 24-4 Mixer
dbx DriveRack PA (for monitors)
dbx DriveRack 260 (for house speakers)
(4) Kustom 10\" monitors (used due to their small size)
(4) Community CPL 27 speakers (house speakers)
(1) Crown XLS 802D Amp (for monitors)
(3) Crown xti 4000 Amps (for house speakers - was planning on having 6 house speakers but ended up with 4, will get 2 more soon)
(9) AudioTechnica 3000 series wireless headworn mics
(4) AT hangin mics
(2) AT boundary mics
I had done a lot of sound in high school in a fixed installation environment. Even though I had done a lot of sound, I had not had any formal training. Never heard of pinking a room or ringing out a system. Feedback has been a problem in every live sound situation I have ever been in as an attendee (not running sound). And the sound has bever been crisp and clear. This is because everyone seems to say, \"talk to Joe, he has a lot of stuff\". Well, Joe may have a lot of stuff he has built over the years, but nothing is designed for the specific need of live sound.
I have provided you the setup I now have. Built from many hours of research and with the support of a couple of posters on this forum (thanks, guys). It is the perfect setup for what I was looking for. The show was amazing. Every seat in the house had the same experience in terms of being able to hear every word spoken and note sung. Auto EQ and Auto Feedback is very simple and straight forward. I can set up the entire system from my trailer to a new environment in about 30 minutes, including EQ and Feedback setup on both the DriveRack 260 and the DriveRack PA. I have never seen anyone set up so quickly and sound so good (no compliments to me, but to the great equipment).
I have posted some pictures of my setup at:
http://www.MightyChangeThroughChrist.com/pictures.htm
I kept them very large so detail can be seen. You can see the (4) CPL27 speakers in the first picture.
I'll keep an eye on this post to provide any questions you may have. I don't have the extensive experience others here have, but I have the fresh experience of a new user of these two dbx products.
Jerry Winters
A few more thoughts.
I was looking at JBL speakers (JRX125s) before for house speakers. After I took a moment or two to think about the suggestions on smaller speakers, the lights began turning on.
Where do you go to hear quality sound? Orchestras, high-end theatres, Operas, even Ballets. What do you see when you go to these types of performances / environments? You see smaller speakers (8\", 10\") and they sound great. So, where do you see 15\" speakers? Battle of the Bands, cheap DJ setups, cars that 'thump', etc.
The music I wrote for our production uses a lot of different instruments. The low strings which were used to create a dark dramatic effect sounded amazing using the CPL27s. Human voices ranged from a very low Bass to a choir of children. Once again, each sounded perfect.
I did one modifcation to the CPL27s - I put a speaker stand mount on the bottom of the CPL27s. The cool thing? There speakers were already threaded in the right places to mount the speaker stand to. No need to drill holes, etc.
Jerry
Thanks for coming back and posting your most excellent work! We were wondering what came of the whole thing.. I'm very pleased you like the setup.. I knew you would... unbelievable little boxes are they not? I'm so glad we were able to guide you to the ultimate solution for your project, and that it worked out so well...Thanks also for checking back and perhaps helping someone else perhaps avoid big mistakes that are often made in the mane of brand snobbery...I wish I could come and see one of your productions.. How have the crowds been?
Well Brian.. there you have it.. a completely unsolicited vote for the CPL speakers... As I said I have much experience with them and as I said with the right amps... those things will get LOUD...We put them on a Digam 5000 amp and they were STUPID loud.. and absolutely NO breakup or damage... and that's with 2000 watts available per speaker...(ya I know.. they didn't take the whole thing, but the amp protected them and sent only what they could handle...but it was AMAZING!
BTW the CPL 27's are the dual woofer design...
Gadget
We had on average, 600 people per night. 4 performances, so 2400 or so total. The gratifying thing is that people came back and brought friends and additional family members after they came the first time. Thanks to the DriveRack 260 and the CPL27s, we even had people sitting in the back row saying \"it's too loud\" even though others sitting there were just fine with the volume. In a production like this, it is important to have the sound be not only loud enough for people to hear but a little lowder so they don't hear babies making noises, little discussions that take place between audience members, etc.
I will say that I had my xti4000 amps turned up about 25% of the way. I haven't tried pushing the speakers \"really loud\", but with 4 of them was able to keep levels up to where everyone could hear and they sounded awesome. Having written the script and composed the music for this musical, I was determined to make sure things were as perfect as I could get them. The CPL27s and DriveRack 260 didn't let me down.
I look forward to using this system now for other groups my children perform with. My family and I even used it to perform at a Senior Center here in Salt Lake City last week. I only used two of the CPL27s and to of the monitors for that performance, but they sounded great, even to those who are hearing impaired due to . . . . being mature in age.
Jerry
I've sent a very strong recommendation email to my fellow church audio team members. In it I was succinct in my message, the Lexus is a better car and it is less expensive!! Remember when they were trying to convince us of that?
Years ago Lexus ran into the same mentality that I am having to deal with as it pertains to certain people on the audio team. \"The Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac and Lincoln are in a complete different class than Lexus... Heck, it's made by Toyota!! What do they know about making luxury cars?\"
I listed three speaker systems, the preferred JBL SRX715F, Yorkville U15 and the Community VERIS 1264. Cutting to the chase, I quoted several posts from Gadget and DRA. Additionally, I also quoted several posts from the PSW website... specifically JBL SRX715F or U15.
My recommendation was that we purchase the U15.
Gadget/DRA,
Thanks for your incredible knowledge and recommendations. I actually like the idea of several smaller speakers but that would require trying to convince my team that several small speakers could do a better job than two big speakers blah, blah, blah. Like I said, I've kicked this horse about as much as I can.
I will keep you guys in the loop as to our progress and what we actually end up buying.
Jerry,
Thank you for sharing your experience and your subsequent success in integrating your audio system.
And everyone said.... AMEN!!
-Brian