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FOH/MON Speaker Design for use with DBXPA or 260
Kenyon
Posts: 5
Hi all I'm new to this PA stuff.
You guys on the DBX forum in addittion to giving stellar DBX support know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to sound reinforcement. I hope that i am in the right place to ask these questions.
I want to install sytem in my local church. I'm in the process fo designing one that will be expandable and future proof as we are raising funds for bigger building.
We have been plagued by a bad sounding system over the years and \"technicians\" who \"know what to do\".
The current hall arrangement has its limitations and I believe that I am almost bound to wall mounted speaker configurations as ceiling suspension is not an option
I came across the DBX product as a component I would want to use.
Here is a list of coponents I have come up with so far
Mixer - Behringer EURODESK SX2442FX
Main Amp -Crown XLS802D (QSC RMX 2450) Main
Monitor Amp- Crown XLS402D (QSC RMX 1450) Mon
DBX Driverack PA/260 With Set Up Mic
FOH Cabs - 2pcs Yorkville E15/E15B or
2pcs Yorkville E12/E12B
Monitor - 2pcs Yorkville E10/E10B
After doing some digging around and reading I scrapped the idea of using JBL JRX125's ( I originally wanted a speaker that would give me enough UMPH without having to add a separate Sub)
Also I read of a thump from the DBXPA with power loss. I'm concerned about this as I want to design the system to be as bulletproof as possible given that I have an opportunity to change the sytem and not the \"technicians\" I alluded to before as possible (Assuming someone may not shut down the DBXPA properly) Should I go with the 260?
I am having problems coming up with placement of the speakers for optimal dispersion and was wondering if multiple smaller Wall mounted speakers may be better, such as the CPL27's ,( are the DND and MVP series any good they are cheaper than the Yorkville)
I drew a plan of the Church floor, downloadable if you browse to here:
https://cid-22ba906487fc4d6b.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Church%20Hall%20Sketch.pdf
Advice greatly appreciated
You guys on the DBX forum in addittion to giving stellar DBX support know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to sound reinforcement. I hope that i am in the right place to ask these questions.
I want to install sytem in my local church. I'm in the process fo designing one that will be expandable and future proof as we are raising funds for bigger building.
We have been plagued by a bad sounding system over the years and \"technicians\" who \"know what to do\".
The current hall arrangement has its limitations and I believe that I am almost bound to wall mounted speaker configurations as ceiling suspension is not an option
I came across the DBX product as a component I would want to use.
Here is a list of coponents I have come up with so far
Mixer - Behringer EURODESK SX2442FX
Main Amp -Crown XLS802D (QSC RMX 2450) Main
Monitor Amp- Crown XLS402D (QSC RMX 1450) Mon
DBX Driverack PA/260 With Set Up Mic
FOH Cabs - 2pcs Yorkville E15/E15B or
2pcs Yorkville E12/E12B
Monitor - 2pcs Yorkville E10/E10B
After doing some digging around and reading I scrapped the idea of using JBL JRX125's ( I originally wanted a speaker that would give me enough UMPH without having to add a separate Sub)
Also I read of a thump from the DBXPA with power loss. I'm concerned about this as I want to design the system to be as bulletproof as possible given that I have an opportunity to change the sytem and not the \"technicians\" I alluded to before as possible (Assuming someone may not shut down the DBXPA properly) Should I go with the 260?
I am having problems coming up with placement of the speakers for optimal dispersion and was wondering if multiple smaller Wall mounted speakers may be better, such as the CPL27's ,( are the DND and MVP series any good they are cheaper than the Yorkville)
I drew a plan of the Church floor, downloadable if you browse to here:
https://cid-22ba906487fc4d6b.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Church%20Hall%20Sketch.pdf
Advice greatly appreciated
0
Comments
How loud does the band play? How heavy does it get? Are the drums mic'd (put through the PA)? If you say the levels are not \"rock show\" loud, then the E12's would work fine. If yes, then a sub (probably a single in a corner) should be added. The E15 would be more geared for more low end content, but not as good for vocals (but still good). You'll have to decide there.
What is your total budget for the 260, amps, speakers (including monitors)? Is it your intent to use the 260 for FOH (mono) and monitors (1 mix)? We may be able to get you sources to save enough money to get a few \"extras\".
DRA
Set up wont be rock loud.
Right now the band uses a drum machine. I expect a full Drum set up to be added later. Based on current size of Hall the drums need not be mic'd
Band basic setup.
Drum Machine
Electric Guitar
Bass Guitar
Keyboard/Synth
I was thinking of using the DRA for the House speakers and the Mixer Eq set routed to the Aux sends for the Monitors. Everything Stereo
For typical church PA I know stereo may not be needed but it's just a caveat of mine esp since I personally use master recorded accompaniment tracks to perfom.
My Budget seems to be just about $4500USD for
House Speakers, Monitors, 1DBX, 2Power Amps, 1Mixer
(or any other combination)
I take what you are saying about the E15s only for more Low End. It's just that current hall layout really doesn't lend itself to a sub in a corner anywhere (in my opinion).
I was hoping to have a compromise with the E15's so that I could get some fair low end without sub.
This was after looking at spec's and the little that I know about frequecy response/driver size (Air Mass Movement)
Have not actually heard the E10's E12's or 15's so I'm open to any advice.
I'm basically doing all my homework now so that I can propose this system and get funding. While 5000USD may not be much in the whole scheme of things for PA Systems. For my congreagtion this represents a huge paradigm shift. It's really about getting to that point where change is accepted.
I need to make believers of the believers if you know what I mean.
As far as the extras go that would be nice. For me this 4500 represents the backbone of the system.
We already have some average mics etc. If I cant afford in this first tranche would be upgraded bit by bit.
The 260 or better is the only choice here since you want to be able to lock out the processor once it is set...there are actually multiple levels of security available...I would say if you want to be future proof though, you should consider the 4800...
If it were me I would lean towards a better speaker, and one that has a 40x60 rotatable horn so that when you build the new sanctuary you can add one speaker, rotate the horns to 40 degrees horizontal, and hav an LCR setup hanging in the center.. I would for the time being move the speakers back into the corner, use the DAS RF 1264 available here :
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
go to the reference series and look @ the RF 1264, click on the \"Manufacturers data/spec sheet\" and you will see a speaker that is ready to fly (unlike those like the JBL JRX/MRX and any other \"cheap speaker\" out there.. you really don't want to be flying speakers that were not specifically designed for it.. your insurance will not cover any accident if they are not set up to hang...These are a nearly $1200 speaker that performs like a $2000 plus speaker for under $800... buy once cry once.. \"get the good stuff\"...
Plus these are PRO grade speakers with 50hz- 20,000hz capability.. I think you could conceivably back these up into the corners, ya way back to the back wall, aim them so that they cover those front pews, and avoids the stage for the most part... set the system up flat response, employ the feedback eliminators and have a well covered very usable system that will keep the sound off the walls, on the people and sound exceptional...
How high is the back wall.. can you add a back to front look drawing?
As for your other choices.. I'd recommend you look at the Yamaha P7000 amp from the same distributor.. under $600.. or the Crown XTI 4000.. about $750... froget the 802...
As for the mixer...Hmmm.. well I'm not a very good one to grouse because I have used the Behringer 3282 mixers for the last 10 yeqrs.. but hey there I was in constant fear of someone throwing a drink on my board... that is not the case here... I would consider if there was going to be any recording of the service.. and if so, and if you can get by with 16 channels (and I have to believe you can..) the new Presonus studio/live 16/4/2 is absolutely THE BOMB!...4 band EQ, dynamics processors, compressors, limiters AND gates on EVERY channel! INSTANT RECALL..AND firewire direct out recording built in! for under $2000...
YIKES! If you need even more look to the Tascam DM 32 or 48... THEN you will have something..
That's 2 great tops...a phenomenal mixer, a 3200 watt amp, and a 260 for $5000...that should be the first step...
Gadget
I'm crying already
I have updated the drawing ( did my best, used Excel)
https://cid-22ba906487fc4d6b.skydrive.l ... 20Ver2.pdf
I looked at DAS but it did not seem to have that much retail options.
I was apprehensive of a non mainstream product.
The specifications seem to imply that this is one GOOD speaker.
Is it that I will not need monitors at all for the hall. About the far back mounting I always thought that as a good rule of thumb you keep mics behind speaker for fedback reduction.
Also individuals sometimes stand in frot of the lower stage to speak. Can I still be certain of minimal feedback? It's about anticipating the most amount of scenarios and \"set and forget\", if there is such a thing
The Presonus studio/live 16/4/2 is indeed a BEAST I'll have to think seriosly about that looking more into how I can seamlessly integrate the recording ( didn't think of recording until now, thanks)
In my limited (very limited) experience it just seems almost to good to be true to have those two speakers baked up all the way filling the room emough ( without monitors) and no feedback. You are th expert I'm just soaking it all in. I really want to stay at $4,500.00 is it that I would get best options at Northernsound I have not heard of them until this forum. (You seem to be pointing to them in all your posts)
One mixer+One Amp+ Two Mains+One 260 = First Step.
Got me thinking seriously 8)
PS: If in your opinion flyiing the two DAS would be better then I would try to work it out somehow.
The important thing here is that were talking a speaker that HAS the capability of being a MAJOR player in the world of PRO live sound applications...that they can and will keep up with anything JBL, EAW, or EV has that are twice to many times the price... and provide the option of a rotatable horn geometry...find me another speaker under 3 grand that offers that...with a 3\" or better HF diaphragm, with a 1.4 \" exit...that can handle 2400 watts.... AND have a 55-20Khz response...Compare the JBL SRX 722... we measured a BRAND NEW pair @ 3db down @ 12K.. and one had a different HF driver... right out of the box! they spec an 81 hz 3db down point and show 20khz... not likely...and they're $1600...
You know... I think you are too worried about impressing someone with words and not deeds...I would be one that would pull the moniker off a speaker and replace it with one saying... \"this space for rent\"... PROVE to me you can deliver, and don't sell me your NAME... sell me ON YOUR PERFORMANCE!... Too many of the big guys are resting on their laurels...putting out inferior products.. the biggest criminal I think is JBL, and BOSE is right with them...
I'm not telling you you won't need monitors, I'm telling you you might as well BURN the money if you spend it on crap...NO MATTER HOW LOUD THE MONITORS ARE... they will not be loud enough...and the louder the monitors are... the louder the mains need to be to climb over them... it's a never ending panacea...IEM's and direct instruments are the best way to go, so consider getting the important instances on those... again... buy once.. cry once...
Gadget
The bain of our existence... the worst concept to ever come out of a mic producer...Omni directional mics .... placed behind and below the source...with little or no chance of giving usable frequencies...IF AT ALL POSSIBLE DO NOT USE THEM they will give you problems...The best thing to do is create a headset using a coat hanger and tape the element to it to get it near the mouth of the user...
It's that simple...
Gadget
I have always been into letting the sound and performance speak for itself regardless of \"brand\"
Back in high school (It was for fun)I wired a powerd eq and oem cassette deck with a 25WX2 power amp and sounded better than some of my classmates with other paid inststall stuff in their cars. They never knew nor saw what hit them. Untill now I've only done auto installs here and there.
I just want to get it right by first understanding as much as I could. You have definintley helped in that department. Truth is I don't care for the \"brands\" It's just that the ppl who I have to speak to about this system do. Left up to me alone I would secretly buy/ install during the week between a service then on the day flick a switch and say hear for yourself then ask questions. Alas It's not a perfect world
I would try to get a quotation from Northern Audio for the gear and work from there. Any advice in dealing with them? In your opinion would the Crown be much better than the Yamaha? Also for the mixer I realise that with the Presonus it's like you have an extra signal processor right in the chain. Am I correct ?
This is the base I'll be looking at
2pcs DAS RF 1264
1DBX Drive Rack 260
1 P7000 or XTI 4000
1 Presonus 16/4/2 - I have a lot to learn if this is to be maximised in use
Wish me luck?
Have a good night
As far as the amps go either would be fine.. the Crown has processing you don't need...both are very efficient.. if saving a buck means getting the right stuff elsewhere...
As for the Presonus it's like getting a
16 channel compressor
16 channel Gate
16 channel limiter
this alone would run you $10-20,000 dollars to buy separately...plus you get:
A digital mixer with total recall...
and one that has a far superior EQ section...I believe fully parametric...which means 16 4 band parametric EQ's can be added to the list...
So someone comes in a messes up the board.. press ONE button and your back where it was before they touched it...
Lets say you have a band that makes a circuit and comes once a month to play at your church...you set them up once.. give them a preset, and recall it every time they come an BOOM.. same every time...
Or you set up different scenarios...you have a band preset, a choir preset, and a minister preset... one button press and the mixer sets itself up for that eventuality...Some heady stuff...So it's a win win situation in my book..
G
It is not 100% recallable, though. All digital controls can be, and the fader levels are stored, but the faders themselves have to be hand set (the channel LED meters tell you where to set them). Input gains have to be redone the old fashioned way (At least, unless the gains are not a pot but a digital control. The manual was not specific). Regardless, nice. :shock:
DRA
Oh, 4 sweepable channel EQ's, Hi & Lo are shelvable. Each channel has Variable HPF (super nice for vocal ensamble with a deep bass or baritone). Even has a chilled cup holder.