Crossover setup?
WestCoastSound
Posts: 3
Can I run the DRPA in a 2in/6out with all 6 outs being full range on the xover, utilizing the EQ, AFS, & limiter? Something similar to a distribution amplifier, but with all the other bangs and whistles the DRPA has?
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Comments
How fun!
just remember... other than input EQ...what you do to one... you do to ALL! :roll:
Almost forgot.. :shock: you do have a 3 band PEQ on the hi\"s, and a 2 band PEQ on the other 4 outs.... :oops:
The 260 however... does it ALL :!: :!: :!: with none of those limitations... :idea:
G
GEQ - common
AFS - common
Compression - common, recommend not using except for unique \"vocal only\" presentation.
X-over - 3 stereo filters (each has separate gain (volume) control)
PEQ - 3 for Hi, 2 ea for mid and low. PEQ's are stereo
Output Limiters - individual
Delay - useless unless all speaker are within 10 feet of each other
DRA
Purpose / use?
Goals?
I'm a forum noob trying to decide which DR model to get and have a question re DRPA crossovers based around the OP's opening question on this thread:
I’d like to do a set-up with 4 full-range (FR) powered speakers each putting out the same signal with a powered sub filling in the bottom end. Could this be achieved using a DRPA in a 2x5 config where 2 of the FR’s are run off the Hi outputs and the other 2 are run off the Mid outs, but where both the Hi & Mid outs are set up with exactly the same filtering (eg 150Hz -> 20Khz)?
Eg:
Lo out: <150Hz
Mid out: 150Hz – 20KHz
Hi out: 150Hz – 20KHz
I guess another way of asking the question is: if using a 2x5 (or 2x6) set up in the DRPA, does the hi-pass filter frequency on the Hi output automatically and unchangeably default to the lo-pass frequency of the mid-bandpass filter? (ie, not allow the hi-output frequency to stray into the mid-out band?)
Eg:
Lo out: <150Hz
Mid out: 150Hz – (n)KHz
Hi out: (n)KHz – 20KHz
Effectively, I'd like to use the 4 hi & mid outs on the DRPA as a distribution/splitter system to save on the rack space of getting a dedicated splitter (which I'd have to do if I bought the DRPX). Sounds like the 260 is the bee's knees, but it's a lot more expensive!
Thanks heaps!
The DRPA ...+ now, (I know of a couple of DRPA's left ) can offer 2/4/6 fullrange outs.. or 2X5.. you could set up as you posted. The 260 offers it all... except allpass filters and FIR filters...
Gadget
Awesome, thanks heaps for that. I'm based in Australia and there are still a few DRPA's floating around; they're cheaper than before due to the PA+ superceding them, so that looks like the way to go.
I'm actually looking at emulating the Bose L1 system (emphasising for personal use only, not production, before Bose's lawyers jump down my throat! :shock: ); building 4 slim columns for 2 stacks of 2 (would normally only need one stack, but a second stack would help in a 360 degree setting such as an open market)... it'll all be run in mono as a result.
Should be a fun exercise as well as still cheaper than buying a full-blown L1. And I'm so sick of lugging so many boxes to & from gigs!
Do you get the idea that I don't care for Blose...Show me a spec sheet for ANY bose product... :roll:
G
Paper pulp cone full range.
Rubber surround.
Steel stamped frame square.
Magnetically shielded.
135Hz to 15KHz+
R 8W (200Hz)
6.4W (dc)
Fr 135Hz
Sens. 88dB
Pnom 8 Watts
Pmax 15 Watts
I’m a bit concerned about the low power handling, but with their sensitivity, if crossed over an octave above Fo (about 270Hz-ish) an array of 24 drivers (2 parallel sets of 3 parallel sets of 4 drivers in series (does that make sense?)) should produce about 100dB/W/m in total @ 5.6 ohm. This should mean that each driver shouldn’t cop undue individual stress. It’s for small-med venue jazz, so mainly vocals and maybe the odd keyboard/guitar (if their own amps go on the fritz), all via a mixer. I’m hoping that the DRPA will allow me to EQ the fundamental curve of the line array & sub into a decent sounding unit. What do you reckon?
He uses one stick with 2 subs as personal monitor/guitar rig and an additional one as "the main PA"... this is a Journey tribute/ 80's hair band and is in my opinion not a good match sonically as the stix cannot "carry" even the small rooms they use them in. As I walk the venue I find phasing and frequency anomalies and general harshness of the 1-2k region and very noticeable loss of clarity in the 2.5K region... the vocals just don't punch through... now on a jazz/acoustic intimate club setting maybe it would have better served the rooms, but this application is well out of the L1's capabilities.
I also find that the one not wonder subs offer no low end punch and generally flabby bass response peaky @ 70 and 100hz, and are way peaky @ 170 hz as well. Further... there is an 80hz band of frequencies totally unrepresented around 200 hz area that isn't reproduced at all... and thats entirely too much spread in the crossover region but god only knows what havoc would happen if it were tightened up.
The length of the array will determine the frequency beam's directivity. however, I suspect as in all bose products that the equalization necessary is far out of the DRPA's tuning capability... your system may vary, but many MFG need 6+ PEQ bands to tame their beasts. I am further concerned about the delay factor necessary for a 4 stick setup...Were you planning on a "delay tower" positioning of the second pair?
Since I have started working with them we have come to a crossroads as the other band members really hate the stix, but for the money the small gigs offer they can't afford to bring me, and they "get by" with the blose...but when they run with me he uses a guitar amp (he brought in a Mesa dual and 4x12 but that was way to much rig for smaller clubs as he was blowing away the band and the room, and has since settled on a 1X12 tube Bogner rig with a tilt back stand. They really are a local "super group" of sorts and sound really amazing through my rig, but I simply cannot listen to them through their blose system... just too painful.
Keep us informed...please :P
G
Dennis
How much processing remains to be seen; once a prototype is built, I'll have a better idea, although 80/20 rule; I reckon I can get about 80% of the way there fairly easily, with diminishing returns following (this may also take some time to build, though!).
Delay factor/4 sticks: It'll actually be 2 sticks comprised of 2 half length sticks each. Theoretically, I'd either use them both facing the same way but with a splayed dispersion (think car headlights angled out to reduce overlap/combing) or facing 180 degrees away from each other for 360 degree throw in an open setting.
Hi Dennis,
I'm not adding a stick to a PA; I'm looking at replacing one (ie, the standard 2xFOH, monitors, speaker stands, cables, power cords, gaffing cables down, etc, etc... the whole shebang). It's not that my existing one is bad (Yamaha Stagepas 300, with Eminence Beta 8a's replacing the stock Yammie drivers), and it's not a question of coverage; it's just a hassle lugging so much gear from gig to gig. I'm getting older & the bump in/out process is getting older and older each time as well. Not to mention set up time requirements. My bassist (double) often looks at me in an amused way, commenting that he's glad he took up DB as he gets to travel light compared to me!
In my living room...? :?: Que?
Dennis
Ya Dennis, I know but that fact has fallen on deaf ears... those music store guys are so gullible that they actually have their ears adjusted to accept the hype. They don't even hear it...
Perhaps these drivers would be of interest?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=264-805
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=264-807
And this design...
http://www.parts-express.com/projectsho ... t=Kuze3201
Myself.. I would consider perhaps going this route...
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/276819.html not the store but the speaker... under 20 lbs, sound AWESOME and get stupid loud with the right power...in many applications a sub would not be necessary, and when set up flat with the DRPA+ you can set them up behind you and not worry about feedback...Here they are under $200 and you could get 4 for splaying for better coverage. There is also a dual woofer design, the CPL 27...I guarantee the stick will pale by comparison... I consider these "Little but deadly" :shock:
A while back we had a guy doing theater and music and went this route and he was blown away by how incredible they sounded and imaged... in a gym setup he put 6 on sticks and had seamless coverage of the audience, didn't over excite the space and didn't feel the need for subs at all. This saved sightlines, space, money, and weight since the show is portable...
BTW I do the same thing with a slightly larger system using some 12" 2 ways I built, and some small subs I have in the FAQ section as DIY's the tops weigh about 35 lbs and the subs 45...I put them behind the band and they act as monitors and mains and its wonderful! one small amp/mixer rack, One sub with pole mout and one top mounted to a tripod... takes about 15 minutes to set up and tear down... and with light crown amps (Xti) plenty of power and Light weight... AND man DOES IT CRANK!
g
G
No offence taken, just was a little bit confused, t'is all...
Didn't think you were dissing me at all
Man, ya gotta love place like Parts Express. Unfortunately, however, I live in Australia (unfortunate in terms of available options, that is. Otherwise it's a pretty damn nice place to live
That's kind of what I have now, except for the single point alignment of the tweeter & 8". Trouble is, that takes me back to the box/stand/cable etc place I'm in now, so no huge benefit.
I'll let you know how I go, although the project is likely to drag out slowly for cost & time reasons. I also missed the DRPA I was looking at on ebay tonight, but may be able to get by with a B*******r DEQ2496 (should I wash my mouth out, mentioning that in this forum...?
IS that what they've been after? The hifi community absolutely (at least, in stereo pairs of point sources for maximum imaging), but PA? I would have though clarity, dynamic range, low distortion and smooth FR came before point source (but only IMHO; I defer to your experience). 8)
the thing is with true point source the speakers seem to disappear and the soundstage is 3 dimensional.
I thought the Idea was to not have to carry around big heavy speakers and have complex setups? I bet when those towers are built I bet they will weigh well over the 18 lbs those Communities weigh...and you cannot argue with the beauty and coherence of a point source.
Do they not have Tangband down there? It's an Indonesian company after all...
The 2496 has no GEQ and is a throwaway piece should you have any trouble.... but if your adept at PEQ tuning should work out.
G
http://www.renkus-heinz.com/loudspeaker ... index.html
Digitally steerable...pretty cool!
G
But 3d imaging/soundstaging is only true when you're miking the entire band up with just a stereo pair to capture the whole performance (as per live recordings). Getting a 'soundstage' when using individual mics on each performer is more a case of just L/R panning in the mix.
And don't forget; even if you were to stereo mic a gig, beyond a certain size, the audience is going to be so spread out that any such subtleties in the imaging become redundant save for a minority in the sweetspot. And depending on the type of music, too; I'd be pretty surprised if 3d soundstaging was considered a priority over SPL at a Slayer concert, for example.
Instruments would be a factor too; you don't need precision soundstaging for amp'ed electric guitars (assuming they're also also feeding through the PA), once again just a rough pan will align the sound to the player if you're running a stereo mix.
So let's focus on stereo miking small/med acoustic gigs; but even so with these, you'd have a reasonable chance of getting volume off the instruments themselves, so you don't need to try to create the '3d image' as it's already there! So it comes down to the PA providing sound reinforcement only. Creating a 3d soundstage and getting the speakers to 'disappear' is only really crucial when you don't have the performers there to begin with and are trying to simulate them (hence its importance in home audio). And if you're trying to get the speakers to disappear without worrying about soundstaging, then that's just EQ'ing to a natural sounding mix...
I do agree, however, that point source is not a bad thing at all (minimal vertical plane lobing, for instance, which line arrays are proneto), but I'm not convinced that it's as high a priority in a live gig setting for 3d soundstaging reasons.
Actually, the Dai1chi drivers only weigh 250g each (.525 pounds), so 24 drivers would only be 6kg, say 7 with the cabinet (15.4 pounds); I've got some slim aluminium home theatre columns that I'm planning on converting that are nice & light. Re lugging gear, an advantage of the line array design is that there's no speaker stands to lug with the speakers, and no cables to run if the columns can connect both physically & electrically!
No, not really; there are a couple of companies that bring in the odd driver, but the prices! :shock: Try $50 per driver compared to roughly $18 for you guys
Actually, it does have a GEQ (31 band) as well as a 10 band PEQ; even better, you can define your curve in the geq then get the Auto-EQ/RTA function to eq your system to that curve (as opposed to the set curves in the DR). FFT RTA analyser is 61 band! I Like the dynamic EQ's too, but the lack of an XO sux big time.
Trouble with the Yamaha box (sorry, a little of-topic, but fun anyway) is that to get surround (as opposed to just steered single beams like the Renkus-Heinz's), you need the box set up on the central axis of a symmetrically reflective room. It sends out L-R surround beams to be bounced off the sides of the room, then off the back wall back towards the source, hopefully intercepting you on the way. If successful, it'll sound like the sound is coming from behind you.
However this means that you can't be sitting against the back wall (as many couches often are), otherwise you'll only get the surround beam as it reflects of the side wall, so your surround sound will appear to be coming from there!
D'oh! :?
Actually, come to think of it; I thought they were Taiwanese...?
Interesting side note... the band I do the bigger rooms and outdoor shows for...were playing a local small bar last nightand I went to see them (I do a gig this coming week with them and wanted to see if anything had changed)...they added a couple Behringer 15" powered 2 way's on sticks to try and get the vocals to punch through
Here's a link to the band if your interested...
http://www.atlantisrockmusic.com/
Well ...24 drivers at 8 watts per driver... under 200 watts... you sure thats going to cover much real estate?
G
It'll be interesting to see how that pans out; I'm sure there's still clever, innovative & useful improvements in live audio to be discovered out there... (I'm also sure that their marketing depts will hype it up to be more than it really is too... oops, there I go again...
Incidentally, check this out; a different approach to managing variant acoustic reverb signatures within the same playing space by modifying the 'apparent' room as 'perceived' by the audio, by playing the signal back at the source in various degrees of phase through multiple speakers distributed throughout the venue. Quite an extensive and complex approach; analogous to turning the world under the vehicle to get somewhere, but pretty cool nonetheless...
http://www.lares-lexicon.com/pdfs/AFCArticle.pdf
OK.... 15" drivers with no eq to improve vocals... riiiight...
I calculate 24 x 2.75" drivers at approx. 2" diam (effective surface area) to be roughly equivalent to a 10" piston (12" driver?). At 100dB/w/m sensitivity, and nothing below 150Hz, I reckon it should be ok for small-med gigs.