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Question for Gadget - other chime in...

twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
edited November 2009 in dbx Archive General Discussion
Hey folks,

I am the sound guy for a local band here in NC. They went and had already purchased JBL PRX 525's (crapola) to use as their mains before I started working with them.

I've read as much as I could here and it looks like the Fane 15's are the bomb for low end (outside of the labsubs which we don't have the room for in most places we play). I don't see any huge benefit for us to build the 18's from what I've read.

So if we were to build them, then I would probably like 4 of the 15's. If we weren't to build our own cabinets do you think the Peavey SP118's are a decent sub?

Then we come to the top cabinets. You had mentioned the X12HP polycarbonite speakers were great for the money although I see they're not bi-ampable. What other suggestions do you have for top cabinets. I also read a thread where you had shown your design for a cabinet with a 12\" and horn that looked good.

I have installed Worx WX-12 cabinets in churches before and they sounded good vocally but I'm not sure how they would work with a 9 piece band with horns.

The only real issue I have here is some of the band guys have a perception problem and they think having JBL cabinets is good for our \"look\" - so getting them to accept home built cabinets is going to be tough. If we didn't do home built cabs what are your recommendations?

So I've got some ideas I just need some input on how to put it all together.

My biggest system would probably consist of 6 sub boxes and 4 top boxes.

Thanks for any input!

Regards,

- David

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Hi David,
    I tell you one thing, one listen to my system and those BRAND SNOBS would be singing a different tune! :roll:

    Anyway, what kind of budget do you have? I like a few of the boxes that don't cost an arm and a leg.. but I would stay with something with a at least a 1.4\" exit or 2\" exit horn, or three way cab...These are my pick in descending order...
    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    Locate \"reference series\" RF 1264...around $780

    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    locate the IHP 1264 around $1000

    and for something a lot cheaper and not nearly as impressive..
    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    Scroll down to the Veris 32

    These were chosen because in groups they play nice together..even side by side splayed properly.. and @ 60X40 can do singles as well.. some have rotatable horns for even tighter patterns which is nice for keeping the sound off the walls and ceiling...

    The folks @ Northeren sound and light have the best prices... and are great to work with. If you need power as well.. the crown XTI series are nice, and light, and so are the Yamaha's...

    Hope that helps...

    G
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Ok, so I think the RF-1264's are within our reach. I'm guessing for most club size venues a pair of these should be more than adequate. How do they compare with your homebuilt cabinets that had a 12 and a horn?

    So now onto the bottom end cabinets - do you think the SP-118's are decent or would the Fane cabinets with 15's put them to shame? Any other suggestions?

    How much power would I need to run the tops and bottoms? I like the Yamaha P7000 amps but I'm thinking one of those and possibly one of the Behringer E4000 amps. I see nothing but good things said about them and I can buy 2 of them for the price of 1 Yamaha. I'm uessing that 2 of the top cabinets and (4) subs would be as much as we need for the forseeable future and anything beyond that we could rent.

    I appreciate everyone's willingness to take time out of their day and share information.

    Thanks again!

    David
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    They would be close...It has a Neo driver in the horn like mine, but mine has a bit less LF handling in trade of a more musical Neo woofer... I think those will really crank for you...They will handle 2400 watts music power, thats typical R&R with a duty cycle below 35%... so not crap..er I mean rap, or death metal...but... So that means EACH could take a PM7000...bridged mono

    The PM's are 1/2 the weight, and FAR more efficient...(which means that those crappy bar power setups will deliver more bang...and less PUFF :lol::lol::lol: I crack myself up sometimes...) and I believe around $500 @ NSL...

    but... the subs would like about 1600-2000 watts each 2400 watts max(brief ms of time...) so the EP4000 would be ok in 4 ohm bridged, 2 per speaker...

    As for the subs...yes, the SP118's are a good sub...BIGGER. and HEAVIER... but good none the less.. BUT need lots more power... and you should be able to build (if you do the labor) 2 for 1...

    G :wink:

    Rock on...
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    They would be close...It has a Neo driver in the horn like mine, but mine has a bit less LF handling in trade of a more musical Neo woofer... I think those will really crank for you...They will handle 2400 watts music power, thats typical R&R with a duty cycle below 35%... so not crap..er I mean rap, or death metal...but... So that means EACH could take a PM7000...bridged mono

    but... the subs would like about 1600-2000 watts each 2400 watts max(brief ms of time...) so the EP4000 would be ok in 4 ohm bridged, 2 per speaker...
    Rock on...

    Ok - I'm a little confused - you said I'd need (4) EP4000's - (2 per speaker - see your quote above) for the subs and then (2) PM7000's to run this deal? If we're not running the top's at full range then wouldn't less power be required to run them?

    What kind of crossover point would you recommend? Are the top cabinets Bi-ampable? If not can they be modified to be and is there a benefit to it?

    Since I'm not a cabinet builder with all the tools I've found a local carpenter to see how much he'd charge to build the cabinets. Then I guess we'll see how much they will cost. When I looked up the prices for the 15's they were over 200.00 not the 120.00 you paid last year. Is there some super Gadget discount we get?

    Thanks again for answering my questions!

    David
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    David.. yes, I meant 2 subs per amp...now last I looked those woofers were $99 on close out... are we talking the P Audio C600 or C650 EL?

    As for the tops, they aren't set up for Bi-amp.. BUT it would be easy to change that... and then they are MORE efficient, but could handle even MORE power :shock: although they would be fine with somewhat less...

    You get the speaker setup..I'll help you dial it in, no sense spending time on a speculation system... You would need 100 + watts PER driver for the horns BTW...the woofer is rated 600-1200-2400... so as I said... they could really crank with the right power...smaller rooms might be ok with 500 watts and the right crossover point...for the mid..subs... 750 to 1000 but when you hit bigger venues...you fall short trying to cover 250 and up crowds with that power...

    As I said as long as you have strong backs buy the EP4000's and have at it... but that's only 550 watts per speaker... as I said fine for small rooms... but ain't gonna cut it for biguns...Bridged 8 ohms 1750 watts... YA, now were talking!

    Also buck and-a-half minimum for the horns...I use 1000 watts for 4 horns...

    ok?
    G
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Ok - I appreciate the clarification - 2 speakers per amp not 2 amps per speaker! LOL

    I discussing with the band now so hopefully we can move forward on the subs.

    When I go to this page - http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/html/pa ... enger.html - it lists the C15-600EL driver as 206.00. I'll give your guy a call to see what the real price is today.

    ** Update ** didn't talk to Jay but a guy named Dave. Said the 206.00 price on the internet was my price and that you were setup as a wholesaler and wouldn't give me your price. Let me know if you can help out or where everyone else is getting these from at the killer prices. **

    I'm pretty sure we're gonig to build 2 of these to start out and depending on cost we might go for 4 right away. I'm still working on the tops with the band.

    Didn't Dr J get some updated plans for these cabinets from Fane? Maybe I need to PM him and ask him to post.

    The Behringer amps only weigh 10# more than the Yamaha and with a 9 piece band + 1 sound guy I'm sure we have enough grunt to pick up an extra 20-30# at the end of the night! :lol:

    I'll get back to you when we have a firm plan and start to move forward.

    Thanks!

    - David
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    David I sent you a PM. Ok here is the deal with the Fane drawings. I am building the 18's now so this may not apply to your 15 drawings -- I will go and look in a little while. On the 18 drawings you can't really see what the braces are doing so I emailed Mark @ Precision devices -- they are the guys that bought out Fane and he looked at the drawings himself and noticed two mistakes. #1. You can't really see what the braces are doing. I suppose if you just started building the thing you could figure it out but why ASSUME. #2. The plans say there is only ONE vertical back brace & FOUR horizontal side braces --- IT IS ACTUALLY THE OTHER WAY AROUND (including the measurements). There is ONE horizontal back brace and FOUR vertical side braces. The vertical braces run from the FRONT baffle to the BACK with TWO upper braces and two lower braces. Does anyone know how to place an attachment on here or does DBX not allow attachments / pics? I would be happy to pass on the updated drawing.
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    David -- I looked at the 15\" drawings and the braces on them are correct. They specifically say 4 \"front to back braces\". There are two upper and two lower. There is one brace across the back that runs Horizontally. The measurements look fine as well but you may want to cut those last to make sure the lengths are correct. Take plenty of pictures of your project. We like to see the steps and the progress you make start to finish here. Alot of guys get some info and drop out so we never know what the end result is. Gadget and Dra love to see the end product. I will do the same. The more guys that follow the steps and procedures throughout the whole thing from the Driverack stuff to the speakers...etc. just makes this a better forum & reinforces the concepts that are taught here. I know it takes time because if money wasn't a factor we would all have killer set-ups. For me it is trying to convince my wife that a whole rack of nothing but poweramps is necessary as well as a nice stack of speakers that are custom made. Anyway good luck! Oh and tell your band mates to forget the JBL idea. My tops are JBL's and the horns on both were wired wrong. Then when I checked the ohms on the drivers they read just under 8 for one horn a just above 4 for the other?????? So I junked them because they didn't seem very balanced with each other. I bought some BRAND NEW Eminence drivers and BOTH were wired wrong from the Factory!! I love the eminence stuff -- I guess it was a Friday or something :shock: :lol::lol: . Basically you have to check EVERYTHING as Gadget says repeatedly. I'm not saying JBL's are Bad sounding once you get all of the assembly line mistakes ironed out. My buddy has an all JBL system and we found just the other night that Both of his top cabinets were wired wrong. One horn was out on one side & one mid speaker on the other side was out. What a nightmare!! And to top it off -- one sub was sucking in instead of going out! I guess you may run into this with every company out there so just tell your buddies that JBL has a few issues but nonetheless check everything out while you are putting it together. Take Care!
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    :lol::lol::lol: Yup, if you have me come mix on your system I'll crawl up it's ass with a microscope! So beware.. as things go offshore you'll see many more of these types of issues.. and YES even with JBL and their supposedly \"Professional\" SRX line and up...even to the VRX and Vertec arrays...

    Doc, you get a \"photobucket\" account and post the pictures there and then past the \"IMG code\" into the post...
    Itsagreatdayforaridewannacome.jpg
    G
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    Nice Pic G!! Sweet Bike!! I will check out the Photobucket thing. Thanks!
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Any response to my post since Dr J hijacked it? :lol:

    Do you get better pricing on the drivers?

    Thanks!

    -David
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Yes.. I am a dealer...But they have gone up in the latest price list I just received...

    I have a pair with the Eminence Omega 15 which works well also...

    G
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Yes.. I am a dealer...But they have gone up in the latest price list I just received...

    I have a pair with the Eminence Omega 15 which works well also...

    G

    Do you have a preference between the PAudio and Eminence speakers? Are you willing to pass along a good guy cost on either of these?

    Thanks,

    David
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Hi David,
    I tell you one thing, one listen to my system and those BRAND SNOBS would be singing a different tune! :roll:

    Anyway, what kind of budget do you have? I like a few of the boxes that don't cost an arm and a leg.. but I would stay with something with a at least a 1.4\" exit or 2\" exit horn, or three way cab...These are my pick in descending order...
    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    Locate \"reference series\" RF 1264...around $780

    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    locate the IHP 1264 around $1000

    and for something a lot cheaper and not nearly as impressive..
    http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
    Scroll down to the Veris 32

    These were chosen because in groups they play nice together..even side by side splayed properly.. and @ 60X40 can do singles as well.. some have rotatable horns for even tighter patterns which is nice for keeping the sound off the walls and ceiling...

    The folks @ Northeren sound and light have the best prices... and are great to work with. If you need power as well.. the crown XTI series are nice, and light, and so are the Yamaha's...

    Hope that helps...

    G

    Looks like the DAS 1264's have had a price jump - last time I checked they were under 800 and now they are 1020! I'm revisiting this now because we're at a place where we are looking to reconfigure our PA, wooohooO!!! At 1020 a cabinet that is a stretch on our budget. Any other suggestions? You said the low end Communitys weren't near as impressive. Can you get better pricing on the DAS audio cabs?

    Thanks!
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Still the best bang for the buck and still under $800 the DAS RF 1264 offer 4 " voice coils on the woofers, and 1.5" exit 3" voice coils... Are you looking for subs as well?

    G
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Still the best bang for the buck and still under $800 the DAS RF 1264 offer 4 " voice coils on the woofers, and 1.5" exit 3" voice coils... Are you looking for subs as well?

    G

    Gadget - where are you getting this pricing? I went to the website and they are 1020.00 each not under 800.00.
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Are you looking for subs as well?

    G

    I was going to build 4 of the Fane designed subs. Do you have any other suggestions for ready made cabinets?

    Thanks,

    David
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Did you call the Northern Sound and Lighting number and get a quote? I did and they were $782.10 last week...and thats the RF 1264, there is a 1294 with 90 degree horizontal for the same price... they are an order in item so you would need to allot for that time...

    PV SP118/218 would probably be the best bang for the buck...They use the new low rider driver and I like it! MCM now carries the FANE line of woofers and I think the Fane cabs would be better, but you asked about ready made...

    G
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    $1020.00 is probably the MAP price that the manufacturer imposes on the dealer...they can't advertise the product below that price. You have to call the dealer and talk to a human in order to get the $782.00 price.

    Dennis
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Did you call the Northern Sound and Lighting number and get a quote? I did and they were $782.10 last week...and thats the RF 1264, there is a 1294 with 90 degree horizontal for the same price... they are an order in item so you would need to allot for that time...

    PV SP118/218 would probably be the best bang for the buck...They use the new low rider driver and I like it! MCM now carries the FANE line of woofers and I think the Fane cabs would be better, but you asked about ready made...

    G

    Ok - don't crucify me for this - but have you ever seen or heard the Carvin cabinets? Looks like a compact design with a 4" voice coil. Just curious what your impression is? For a ready made cabinet they look nice and are lightweight. http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/s ... ct=TRX118N

    Thanks!

    David
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Carvin makes a good box... they have in the past embellished their specs...Below is a thread from the PSW that states it pretty well

    http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.p ... 88/0/16/0/
    G
  • twkd2twkd2 Posts: 32
    Gadget wrote:
    Carvin makes a good box... they have in the past embellished their specs...Below is a thread from the PSW that states it pretty well

    http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.p ... 88/0/16/0/
    G

    Ok - so looking at the Carvin cabinet - is the SPL limited by cabinet design, driver or both? What if you used the same cabinet but the Fane or MAudio driver?

    Just trying to understand the dynamics here. I have gotten the price for the DAS cabinets as you suggested - we're going to pick those up next week.

    As far as subs - my group is still bothered by the whole "home built" look and to get the bottoms to look as nice as a factory made cabinet would cost us a bunch of cash it seems. So this is why I'm still looking at alternatives.

    As a sound guy my first choice is the build the fanes because you and others here say they are nasty little puppies - but my band is also concerned about how they look.

    Thanks for your input!

    - David
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    twkd2 wrote:
    What if you used the same cabinet but the Fane or MAudio driver?

    No. The cabinet was designed around the driver it comes with.

    Dennis
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