Home dbx User Forum dbx Archive Threads dbx Archive General dbx Archive General Discussion

EAW Tops

Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
Hey guys -- I have a question that re-visits the polarity issue. My buddy just got some EAW KF-461 TAVS Tops and we checked the polarity. They are biamped and loaded with a 15-in woofer (vented), a horn-loaded 8-in MF cone and a 1.4-in exit/44mm voice coil HF compression driver on a 60 x 40 constant directivity horn. The 15's checked out Ok, The high frequency drivers checked out Ok BUT the 8 inch's speakers did not. The both show \"INVERTED\". This was checked with a Galaxy Cricket. Is it common for an 8 inch speaker to be inverted on these intentionally? Or could it be that it is wired backwards? Here we go again.......

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Some MFG's wire their drivers reverse, so that a positive pulse yeilds a toward magnet reaction in the driver...JBL is the notable \"culprit\" here... Why they do it to SOME and not all drivers is still not clear to this intrepid warrior...
    Now I don't have the time right now to determine which drivers are which... but the processor page for EAW clearly states the MF/HF are NEGATIVE:
    http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Processor_S ... S_rev2.pdf
    While the LF is positive...

    Looks like the LF sits alone though... and the MF/HF are together in revers-phase ville....This could be because the horn length takes enough phase shift to warrant phase

    Thats my $.02
    G
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Probably intentional. I have run into several different configurations of inverted polarity with EAW. Can you find any other 461s to test? That product is discontinued and the current equivalent is the LA460 which, I think, tests out the same way. The KF850 was EAWs most popular touring speaker back in the day and it had inverted polarity action happening (or had time/phase settings at the xo point that would confuse your polarity tester). As long as the speakers sound correct and are the same, just go with it.

    When time aligning a speaker cabinet, drivers can start out many degrees out of phase from each other. It is possible that inverting the polarity on one driver will bring the phase response at the xo point between it and the other driver much closer to being the same. In that situation, after the polarity is inverted, it will require less delay to complete the alignment.

    Gadget, your post indicates that a previous owner possibly \"modified\" the 461s. I think I can get my hands on some LA460s to test and see if both the horn and mid are inverted.

    Dennis
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Hey Dennis,
    Those were my \"EAW\" 'acoustic partner' parameters...provided by them...so who knows. Perhaps the MF/HF crossover has inherent phase shift.. as you have speculated...

    :?:
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Just tested LA460s....Mid-inverted polarity, hi-not inverted, low-not inverted.

    Dennis
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Yes for tri amp? what about Bi-amp? the EAW site clearly shows mid/hi as reverse polarity.. low standard polarity...I assume it's handled in the crossover...
    G
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    Thanks Gadget & Dennis. I guess there isn't any delay if it is inverted. That is an 8 inch speaker too. I guess he will just have to go with it. The HF driver and the MF driver are wired together with their own crossover right? The LF driver is by itself. Does it come down to \"Inverting\" is an easier way to align the drivers or are there any other reasons? IF you UN-Inverted the MF would there then be a delay factor and If so I wonder how much? One other thing....... The processor page spec sheet Gadget posted has the tunings on it and so forth --- would they be very accurate manually placing those into the Peavey VSX 48 (peavey's version of the DriveRack) or are they meant for an EAW type of driverack. My buddy told me after putting those settings into his VSX 48 -- it made a remarkable difference. Just wondering. I would probably still want to do an outdoor method and just compare the two. Thanks guys!
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    The woofer, is delayed 1.35ms... the biamp info is here:http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Processor_Settings/Legacy_Products/KF461_KF465_PROCS_rev2.pdf

    The PEQ's and Shelf filters are included...note an adjacent BW24 filter with a significant 125 hz spread from the 392 hz LPF for the woofer to the 517hz HPF of the mf/hf section...However a PEQ @ 517 hz is in place to account for that spread...
    Yes they are using a passive crossover for the mf/hf crossover I assume the HF inverse to the mf driver is taken care of in the filter.

    As for the processor settings... yes they can be entered into any processor.. that has the capability of matching the specs...the Driverack would need some small differences since the processor settings aren't exactly duplicatable... but you can get close... The MFG's have much more resources to provide tuning info for their speakers... unless you are very adapt at tuning speakers you would do well to utilize the OEM setup.. I know I rail against that but that is for ME, and Mikey, and Dennis who have years of experience and tools at our disposal to make this a personal thing... that we get the speakers tuned the way WE want them...
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    The LA460 I tested is over 10 years old. A switch on the back gives you the option of \"Passive\" or \"Bi-amp\". When in the bi-amp mode, the 15\" woofer and the 8\" mid are ganged together and the horn stands alone. My test didn't include a processor...just signal direct into the speaker.

    I know for a fact that old KF300e or KF300i ganged the mids and highs together and the woofer was by itself. The current model KF300z gangs the woofer and mid together leaving the horn by itself. When you read the specs, you have to be aware of vintage. I can't keep up with all of this crap.

    So Dr. J, lets say two drivers time align at 128* of phase due to the individual characteristics of each driver. Your options with polarity are 0* (non-inverted) and +180* or -180*(inverted). 180* is closer to 128* than 0* is. So you invert, then add delay to the correct component to bring 180* down to 128* (which is less delay than bringing 0* up to 128*). Some situations give you no choice and you have to invert...other situations are a judgement call.

    Dennis
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    Thanks Guys -- I will pass this along.
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Gadget...I just checked out the link you posted for processor settings and a new thought crossed my mind. They're a separate issue from the wiring of the box. The wiring to the mid/high is inverted in the box. It is then inverted again in the processor bringing you back to where you started...non-inverted. My theory is that the box without any processing sounds better to the EAW engineers when the mid/high is inverted. When a processor is added and exact alignment can be accomplished, they\"un-invert\" the polarity at the processor.

    Hey..it's just a theory.

    Dennis
  • Dr. JDr. J Posts: 209
    One other thing. G -- what does \"OEM\" stand for \"Outdoor ??? Method\"? or something else........ Can't remember. And Dennis -- do you think the 15 and the 8 should actually be in + polarity with each other and the horn Inverted? Wait a minute...... I just saw your post come in Dennis. Ok -- if your theory is true do you think we will have a better answer by checking the polarity while the whole system is hooked up? Like from the Vocal mic all they way through till it comes out of the speakers?
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    I think that however EAW wired it originally is how it should be run. If you're unsure about the wiring, call their tech support or post a question on their forum...it takes them 1 or 2 days to reply.

    Dennis
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    O= original E= equipment M= Manufacturer...OEM
    As for the EAW's some passive crossovers shift the phase a whole bunch I suspect that the mid and HF are matched @ reverse polarity.. so do that and treat the speaker like a 2 way...use the parameters that EAW provides unless we find a better solution that is proven... I suspect they are out there...
    G
Sign In or Register to comment.