Trouble with Subs

rickyjohn

Hello guys, I hope you can assist me with an issue I am having with my current system. I have read the read me first and most of the posts regarding the DRPA and PX. I have an all powered system.
My subs do not give me that in your chest response that I am looking for and I hope after I describe current set up, you can at least point me in that direction.

SYSTEM:
4 EAW NT-S22 (2000watts)
Response: 35Hz to 130Hz
Output: 126 SPL

8 EAW NT-L720 (1500watts)
Response: 75Hz to 21 KHz
Output: 127 SPL

I use the DRPX as my main processor.

Thanks.

Gadget

Hmmm...so tell us what you've done to this point? Are you running the subs as a block? 2 per side? What are your PX processor settings, like HPF and LPF for the subs...xover point and type? I know it sounds crazy but have you verified that all the cones are moving in the direction they should? Individual cabs checked, then in clusters of 2, 3 and 4? Do the outputs couple and increase with each additional sub? You should have plenty of horsepower to have a good heart punch going...

Since EAW went offshore I'm hearing disturbing things about the quality control...

Gadget

rickyjohn

LPF is set at 120Hz BW, which I think is part of the issue, when I was testing setting I did not notice any noticeable difference unless it had to \"LOAD\".
I did notice an increase in output when put in clusters of two or more for the coupling effect.
The cones should be moving in the same direction since it basically 'Plug and Play', ( I know....newbie questions and answers, but please bare with me).

Thanks.

Gadget

No problem...the xover point is acceptable, you do realize the tops have built in DSP the subs do not...I imagine thats why your using the PX?

Now, I'm wondering if you shouldn't access the tops DSP (if you haven't done so already) and apply some delay to the tops to align then with the subs...

Also, what are you using to set the output level of the speakers? What are you using to balance the subs with the tops? Are you using the PX xover gain controls and if so what are you doing with them?

What crossover slope?

I would suggest trying this:
1. HPF for the subs 20hz BW6 (basically letting the subs do their own HPF
2. LPF for the subs 120hz BW24 gain +6
3. HPF for the tops 100 hz BW24 gain -0-


Gadget

Dr. J

Rickybobby (just kidding ) Rickyjohn -- Seriously -- check to make sure your subs are moving outwards. Take a 9 volt and place the positive on the battery to the positive on the speaker. you should see the cone move \"Outward\". Flip the wires around and make sure the speaker then moves \"Inward\" If that checks out OK then find a way to check it again after it is wired to the jack. Then after that make sure the speaker still moves outward after it is hooked to the speaker cable just before it goes into the poweramp. Getting the picture now? It is possible the polarity is inverted somewhere in your chain. You just got to find out where. Those EAW's Should kick. But if the polarity isn't right -- then they will fight each other and not have punch. Do this with all of your speakers. Don't put a 9 volt on your horns though -- it will possibly torch it. I know this sounds \"Basic\" but you would not believe how many people don't do this. I was one of them. Good luck and report back

Gadget

Hey J... they are active subs....AND they are push pull...tops are powered line arrays...with DSP and horn loading... it would be very difficult to do this with anything, other than a polarity checker, or something like SMAART...
G

rickyjohn

Hey Gadjet,
I set the subs level at 41% in the PX ( as the manual describes) and the PX crossover gain controls to balance them.

DR. J, I have used that trick for the last couple of years but the way the sub is designed, you can't see the transducers without taking it apart and it is a powered unit.

Another thing that I noticed is that with powered subs, it takes about an hour or so before it kicks in, has anybody ever noticed that? Cause I also own some EV-SBA750's?

Thanks guys for all your help.

Gadget

An hour before what kicks in? Try the setup I described in my earlier post and see what happens...

G

rickyjohn

Thanks Gadjet,
I will try those settings and let you know how it goes.

You guys do such a fabulous job on this site, keep up the good work!

BLESS!

Dennis

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... D=26028144

Dennis

Dennis

According to the spec sheet, there is a polarity switch on the sub. It would be worth checking that switch on all 4 subs. The next time you set up, if your low end is still sucking, try reversing the polarity on all 4 subs and see if it gets better or worse.

Dennis

rickyjohn

I did that, but was still missing that gut wrenching bass response that I was looking for. I am gonna try the settings Gadjet mentioned earlier by this weekend and tell you guys how it worked out.

Thanks.

Gadget

remember there is also the gain control on the speaker and xover...so if the sub isn't kickin enough add gain! It may start to sound boomy when pushed but you can use PEQ's to tame that...

G

Dr. J

Oh I see........ The polarity checker Dennis pointed out is the one I have. It is the Galaxy Cricket. It is a nice piece of gear to have around. I also checked all of my microphones with it. Very cool!

rickyjohn

Gadjet, I would like to AGAIN thank you for pointing me in the right direction with the issue I was having with the subs.
Silly me, :roll: I had the compressor on and was rubbing the signal of ALL the dynamics
I had the subs kicking yesterday and everyone was happy .
Do you think that I should use the limiter in the module or let the speaker limiter do what it should?
If I do use the limiter on the DRPX, what would be a good starting point for mainly DJ music?

Thanks again for all your help.

Gadget

Ya the compressor can do just that, but to a certain degree, so can a limiter. The limiters in the PX are ...well limited... and as such do not offer brick wall limiting...I would suggest that the Limiters in the speakers are the best route here...

Glad you found out what the real problem was... Got a minute to describe what you think about those speakers? Coverage, sound quality...quantity...ease of setup. What experience have you had with other speakers prior to these and what reason did you land on these? I assume they are somewhat spendy....

Gadget

rickyjohn

Spendy ? Nah.....just kidding.
Previously I had the NT-29 monitors and loved them and that is why I went with the NTS-22's.
Now that I have them set up properly, coverage was excellent, was a little peaky but adjusted the PEQ and was much better. Set up was very simple, no problems there at all, I used three subs yesterday with three L720 line array cause this part of the world the cultural taste is a bit bass heavy with a deffinite rounded tone.
I have has the EV SX-A750 which is a single 18" with 750watts but the EAW blows it out of the universe. .

Spendy.....will a little bit!

rickyjohn

Gadjet, I have another question for you.
Now I know that you can use passive subs with the PX, I also have some EAW FRZ-250 which are dual 15" subs that I power with 2QSC RMS-1450 driven in bridged mode, can I use both passive and active subs on the PX and if yes, how would I accomplish that from the PX?

Gadget

Are you talking about all.. at the same time? because if you are then I'd have to say no, but it's not a good idea. Now, if your talking about active tops and passive subs... no problem... in fact all passive speakers is no problem or any combination thereof...Simply think of passive speakers as powered speakers with external amps...

Now, that said...what would you want to put those underpowered FRz's with those tops for? the NT's go lower, have more power/output, and I'd bet probably offer less distortion @ rated output?

But anyway, With that low power problem, I'd set the HPF @ 40hz minimum, BW18, probably as high as 47~hz the LPF is less of a problem since the FRz's go all the way up to 2000hz.. so you could use the same HPF as the NT's...

G

rickyjohn

Because of the part of the world I am in, I get a lot of outdoor stuff where there might be a need for additional bass response and also I bought those unit before the EAW came on the market.

Dennis

I'm not familiar with EAW FRZ-250 but would they be useful as a lower mid-range box covering lets say 100-200Hz? The RMX amp still would be unsuitable though.

Dennis

rickyjohn

Hmmmmm.........to much hassle, I may try and sell them if that is the case.
Trying to keep things as simple as possible.

Gadget

Well with the lack of power your not gonna get a a whole lot of good out of them with the NT's... plus, we can't make a three way system with the PX...sell em and get a couple more NT's... THEN you really have something that's scalable!

rickyjohn

When I lived in NJ, I had a PA and the guys at the local store where I got most of equipment from, had it where I could have done both at the same time. I have since sold that PA cause someone wanted it more than I did at the time.

Gadget

Oh believe me, we can do that too...but at what cost? What we try to do here is educate people on the RIGHT way to do things...NOT "Oh hey, we have 37 speakers but there's 25 different brands and 18 different amp models... how can I hook them up on our DRPX? How you ever gonna learn unless you get the REAL skinny on what works and what doesn't? I have Labsubs, Turbo manifolds, Double 18"s, Single 15's... but I don't deploy all of them at the same time... Yes, I have run the Labsubs and one of the other front loaded subs as mid bass in a 4 way system. but deploying two distinctly different subwoofers and having them reproduce the same frequencies is counterproductive...so if your attempting to malign us because we didn't give you a setup for ALL your equipment, it's because it shouldn't be used in the ways you have available to you with the limitations you have... NOW, IF you have other processors than the PX we can maybe help, as in Dennis use of the F series subs as MID bass... but hey with the PX as processor you can't do that...The DRPA, 260, and up CAN do this... NOT the PX...sorry
G

rickyjohn

Totally understand and believe me, when you told me that it was not recommended, I thought that it had it to do with the ability of the PX itself, which is no problem really.
I was also thinking of getting the 260 after reading all the comments and recommendations on this board I know it is the way to go eventually.
Please, please don't think I was maligning you guys cause again the information you have provided to me is invaluable, if that is the case, it was not my intent and I humbly apologise.

Gadget

Perhaps you can understand that this statement:

When I lived in NJ, I had a PA and the guys at the local store where I got most of equipment from, had it where I could have done both at the same time.

(actually I really needed to check out the new "Quote" feature)
might lead us to misconstrue your meaning.. all is forgiven...Just wanted make certain you understand our motive, because "the difficult we do immediately ... the impossible just takes a little longer"...

There is a corresponding improvement in the sound of the 260 along with all the features, and if sound is everything to you the 4800 is amazing... but spendy. 8) but you would be far happier with the feature set of the 260, and just the ability to have an input PEQ of 9 bands and time alignment is worth the cost difference, and then we can add 10 additional PEQ's, completely separate paths through the unit so you have independent control of ALL features.

Actually with that high end rig of yours, you should have the 260, then you could use those Fr subs as mid bass speakers and REALLY pump out the jams...In fact I dare say you would have the benefit of PHAT sound like you could never get with system without them...Your upper register would be clearer, your low mids would really jump and you could time align all of it for better intelligibility and clarity...win win...

best regards
G

rickyjohn

You know hindsight is 20-20 and I should have gone on to say that 'maybe the PX is limited and that is why it could not be done'. But again, I totally understand.
I will deffinitely look into getting a 260 in the next couple of months and add the 250 as low mids, I am just salivating at that thought .

Thanks again for all your assistance.

Gadget

You are welcome sir

djken

Just bought the DRPX and so far not impressed with the lower end I used to get before I bought this system. I am sure it is a setting thing. Here is what I am running:
JBL 2- PRX515 tops
4-Bull frog 18 subs 800 watts powered with 2 Crown CE-2000 bridged mono
subs are connected parallel in bridged mono in a pair per amp
I use this setup for many school dances as the new music has a lot of low end "grunt"
Previously I had been using Rane 2/3 way crossover at 100 hz and the system just plain got your attention with the low end thump but I had problems balancing the tops and subs outputs. Now the whole systems has flipped on me. I lost 3/4 of the bottom end but the PRX515's sound a whole lot louder than before.

I have run the auto setup for levels and EQ. I thought the sub synth would help but not even noticeable difference in bottom end thump.

Gadget

ya, the compressor will do that...I guess I'd let the speakers do their own thing and leave the PX limiter off...
G