PA+ setup

MrMackieman

I have read several of the posts and have gained some valuable knowledge, I am trying to soak it in due to the fact I am a newbie and need all the help I can get. I am wanting to setup with 2 SRM 450's and 1 1501 active sub for FOH, and 2 Behringer B212A active speakers for monitors. Am I right to run a 2x3 stereo input, dual mono GEQ with the 450's on the RH, the B212A's on the LH, and the sub on the Left(Mono) Low? I have went through the setup wizard, all is good except I cannot set for the B212A's once I have entered for the 450's. Is there a way I can set these separately? I read somewhere about using the "Full Range" preset, but I am not sure on the hookup that way. Also, with the former setup I encounter a problem at the Auto Leveling stage, as it goes straight from Left to Right balancing. So should I auto level Left (monitors) first, and then hit previous page and then auto level Right (mains)? I would be most appreciative of any and all help I could get in this area. Thank you so much.

Dra

For your set up you need to set up a 2x6 w/ dual mono GEQ. A 2x5 would also send the sub content of the monitor mix to the subs.
In a nutshell...
FOH to right input.
Monitors to left input.
EQ(R) for FOH.
EQ(L) for Mon.
High output R to FOH tops.
Mid output R to subs.
Low output L to monitors.
(You can change the above(output config) to whatever is most "logical" for you, remembering that the high outout has 1 extra PEQ filter to play with.)
Go into the x-over section and set (in my example) the low filter to be full range (a lot of people like to cut off the low end for clarity, I like 70hz or higher even, and cut the high end about 15-17K). Then set the filters for FOH in the high and mid outputs.
Auto EQ L & R (mic position to suit) and your done.
Ideally you should set up outdoors and then transfer the info from the GEQ to the PEQ to flatten out any naturally bad areas as is describe in several posts.
Hope this helped.

DRA

MrMackieman

Thank you for your reply to my post. I follow you on the connections, so I am learning(thank goodness). At the risk of showing my immense ignorance though, I have a follow up question. Would I use the same range (70Hz-17K) for the the other filters? I am very shaky when it comes to knowledge in these advanced individual sections of the DRPA+. I had arrived at my former settings by merely going through the Setup Wizard and was very amazed that I got through it. Again, thank you for your time, it is most appreciated.

Dra

The typical sub to full range cab x-over point is in the 90 - 120hz area. I use 100hz, because that gets the "trash" out of my subs and keeps the vocals in the top cabinets where they belong.
Set a HPF on the subs at 45hz BW18.
Use LR24 filter types for the x-over point.
Depending on which output is going to the HOH highs (the high outputs don't have an LPF (high cut)) you can cut off the ultra high end at 17K (most speaker won't reproduce that anyway) or leave it as "out" (no filter).

DRA

Gadget

On the old DRPA you would select dual mono and then stereo..2X6

On the + I believe it's opposite... select stereo, then dual mono GEQ ... the idea here is to get a path through the DRPA that allows separate signal paths...Then, the idea is to have 3 separate outputs ... 2 for FOH, and 1 for monitors. This requires a different output for each. I use 'L' Hi outs for mains, 'R' mid outs for monitors, and 'L' lo outs for subs...Now perhaps the monitors aren't the best and they could benefit from an additional PEQ then the monitors would go on the hi outs, and the mains on the mid outs. Actually as Dra pointed out any output could be used as a fullrange out. Technically were putting the mains on a crossover and the monitors on a band pass filter.

As far as the auto level set in this config I don't think it will work... you'll have to set that yourself. When set up properly, you will enter the auto eq sequence (in this case as set up above) and when it finishes it's first pass (mains) it will immediately start the other(monitors) So, have everything ready it goes real fast.

Remember indoors the subs will not be eq'ed properly...as standing waves will collect and skew the results...see this post in the FAQ section:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=949
you will find out that auto eq is marginally useful indoors ....take this from that article if nothing else...

It will also help you to understand why we say let the Auto EQ do only 170-700hz frequencies and tune the rest by ear.

As for the equipment you have there isn't much benefit to entering the actual models in the wizard but if they are in there.. you can use them. It will only give you starting points... probably 100 hz LPF/HPF for the sub/hi mains and thats fine, you'll have to set the monitor bandpass filter yourself..set the HPF @ 60hz BW18, and the LPF to 12.5khz LR6.

Remember to have everything set up and ready to go as it all happens pretty fast with the DRPA+.
Gadget

MrMackieman

I thank you both for this valuable insight, it will help me immensely.

DJ ILL'N

Hey Guys,
Just purchased a DRPA+. Brand new to this stuff so I was hoping I could get some help.
I have been reading the forums and have been trying to figure out the best way to setup my system.
I have a 1000 guest gig this weekend and wanted to make sure the sound was perfect.

I have read not to use the AutoEQ wizard since it doesn't work so well.
Can't wait to try out the AFS.

If I try to do the auto system setup for some reason it skips over the mid section.
It only asks for the highs and lows.
So for now I am using the preset for full range 2x6.
What is the difference between Stereo 3 way 2x6 and Full Range 2x6.

Here is what I have:
(2) RCF ART 322A for the highs
(2) JBL SoundFactor / (1) Crown XS900 for the mids
(2) RCF ART 705AS as the subs

I was wondering if you could assist me with the xover setup and anything else that I should be doing.

I have to work on the gain structure since it's not so easy with powered speakers.

Any help is appreciated.
Thanks!

Gadget

Ok, Which sound factor...12..15..25...and WHY two sets of different FULLRANGE speakers??? this is troubling...tell us in great detail how you envision doing this....and implementing the system. for what type music...
I may move this to a different thread... you should have started a new thread...
Gadget

DJ ILL'N

Sorry, Sound Factor 25's and I'm djing a party playing hip hop and reggae music.

It's a big hall, around 200ft x 200ft, and that is all the speakers I have access to.

I'm assuming the 322A's would handle the highs, the SF25s would handle the mids and the 705AS's would handle the lows? Does that make sense?

Gadget

nope....
Sorry...

DJ ILL'N

What would you advise me to do with the speaker setup that I have?

I guess I'm trying to do something similar to the following except I have jbl sf25s in the mix:
viewtopic.php?t=1190&highlight=

Dra

Suppose you could, as you said, do a hi-mid-lo. Using the dual 15 as your lo-mid and the RCF's as the hi-mid and horns.

Something in the line of 45-90, 90-200, 200 - 20K?

DRA

Dra

You could also, depending on whether you are centered on a wall or in a corner, do an arc set-up. One set covering the center and the other covering the edges.

DRA

DJ ILL'N

Hi,

Not sure what this means:

Something in the line of 45-90, 90-200, 200 - 20K?

Still learning the buttons for the PA+

Whatever you guys do be the best configuration for the PA system I have.

I'm not too sure with the xover settings. The speakers will all be setup side by side next to the stage. My friend told me to get a feedback suppressor... and the store told me to purchase the PA+.

Again.. I'm brand new at this. Any help is appreciated.
After reading the manual.. I still can't figure out how to change the GEQ.. after the AUTOEQ is done.

DRA & Gadget... thanks for your responses.

Dra

DJ ILL'N wrote:

Hi,

Not sure what this means:

Something in the line of 45-90hz for the lows, 90-200hz for the mids, 200 - 20Khz for the highs?


Again.. I'm brand new at this. Any help is appreciated.
After reading the manual.. I still can't figure out how to change the GEQ.. after the AUTOEQ is done. With the GEQ on screen, press the data wheel until the hz is "blocked" then scroll the data wheel to index through the frequencies. When you "land" on the frequency you want to change press the data wheel until gain is "blocked" then scrol the data wheel to increase or decrease the gain of that frequency.

DRA

Gadget

He's giving you the way to make the 322's the high frequencies, the SF25's the mids and the 705's as the subs...

I wouldn't do that...


I suggest the other solution Dra spoke of that has the speakers splayed on either side of the stage... HOWEVER those are BOTH 90 degree horizontal coverage... That means 180 degree coverage on either side of the stage...

You won't be able to cover 1000 people with that rig... no way...that rig is a small venue setup at best... sorry...If the room is long perhaps the 322's as delay towers (without the delay available :roll: )

What are the dimensions of the room?

G

DJ ILL'N

Hi,
I'm trying to use the wizard since it contains 4 of the 6 speakers I will be using but the PA+'s setup wizard skips over the mids section. It only asks me for the highs and lows.

Should I choose a 2x6 full range template instead and tweek that?

45-90hz for the lows, 90-200hz for the mids, 200 - 20Khz for the highs
From reading the other threads i'm assuming the lows would use the BW18 setting and the other two would use the LR24 setting?

Sorry for all the questions.

DJ ILL'N

The room is, I believe, 150ft x 150ft.

Gadget

man you have a tough nut to crack there... that system is NOT going to cover 1000 people...no way Also you have 2 different speaker types with 90 horizontal coverage... meaning they don't play well with others. The reason, overlapping horn patterns causes all manner of sonic chaos....cancellations, modes and nulls that will further mess with your coverage.

Can you fly the 322A's and let the JBL's blast into the crowd out front... the dancers? That is the only way I can see this working with what you have...if you can get the 322's high overhead to try and cover the back of the crowd better...
Gadget

DJ ILL'N

Hi,

I can place the JBL's on top of the subs on the sides of the stage which will face straight to the dancefloor, and then I can have the 322s on stands 25 feet away faced to hit the back of the room?

This is what I mean:

RCF322 <25ft> JBL25RCF705AS <STAGE> JBL25RCF705AS <25ft> RCF322

Would that help with the "chaos"?

Gadget

Except that the arrival times will be 25 feet apart for everyone from the 322's back...unless you can get the 322's far enough out that the main stage sound has mostly dissipated by the time it gets there...

The thing is that the sound from the JBLs will take 22.2 ms to get the 25 feet then the 322's kick in and it sounds like an echo...7ms is noticeable...
G

DJ ILL'N

What distance would you recommend instead of 25'? I can probably do 50'.
I can also move the 322s closer up towards the dance floor and away from the stage as well while keeping the subs and jbls next to the stage.

Gadget

With a 150x150 room I think your better off to try 180 degree coverage on either side of you... this will mean that the sound won't get to the back of the room all that well.. but the dance floor will have basic coverage right? People in the back will be able to talk...

Otherwise I'd try and get the 322's WAY up un the air to fire over the crowd to the back of the room... you don't have enough to cover that crowd any way you look at it...

G

Gadget

What distance would you recommend instead of 25'? I can probably do 50'.
I can also move the 322s closer up towards the dance floor and away from the stage as well while keeping the subs and jbls next to the stage.

Well, the only thing you can do is try and see...I can't believe that the JBL's will project very far in a crowd, maybe 50 feet would work, but the farther you get away the more the difference is gong to be noticeable...How high are the horns on the JBL's when on the subs?

Gadget

Remember to have the 322's and the JBL's set to the same HPF.. you can put them on different output channels but set the bandpass the same... say 100 hz, since the JBLS drop like a rock below 105hz...

And, since you have an already bad situation I suggest if you can corner load or at least wall load the subs and put them together you will get 3db of free low end sound by putting the subs together, and up to 3db more for a wall/floor combo and 3db more if corner loaded...

DJ ILL'N

try 180 degree coverage on either side of you...
but the dance floor will have basic coverage right? People in the back will be able to talk...

This is exactly what I'm going for....How would I organize the speakers in this setup?

Can you give me the xover frequencies for the speakers?

Thanks so much!!

Gadget

Gadget

Filters LR24 100hz
HPF sub BW18 LPF 100hz LR24

DJ ILL'N

Hi Gadget,

Wow, thanks for taking the time out to draw a diagram for me.
I will go with the "better" setup since it will work best with the room that I am in.

I have been placing my jbls on top of the subs for a while now, I guess I was wrong for doing so.

Thank you for the xover frequencies as well.

Much Appreciated!!

Gadget

The problem with one sub on each side is comb filtering...as the bass frequencies combine ...
Go here:
http://webphysics.davidson.edu/Applets/ ... fault.html
and move the red dots around... put them side by side in the corner and see how strong and smooth the wave pattern is, now take them and put them like they were under the JBl's on either side of you amd see what a mess it makes... those fingers like extensions are comb filtering... the black area's have no, or very low bass... and the fingers are bass heavy...

Move the dots around and see what happens... put them close but not touching... on top of each other... you'll be amazed what happens!

remember this... at the frequencies we work with... the subs need to be LESS than 2.5 feet (together is best) apart, or MORE than 52 feet apart!
G

DJ ILL'N

Hi Gadget,

Sorry to bother you again..

but the 2x6 all custom setup... I'm using template 24 (I think thats the number) on the DRPA+ which is full range 2x6 and then i'm going into the xover section and setting up the frequencies. is this ok?

Like I mentioned before when I run the setup wizard it never lets me choose the mids.
Heres what happens:
Hold down setup wizard:
It asks for mains: I put in custom
then it asks for subs: i put in custom
And thats it.. it never asks for mids.
Am i missing something in the setup?