Flattening Session Outdoor Method

georgesguitars

Hi there,
I've owned my DRPA+ about a month and have enjoyed all the obsessive reading I've done with this forum. Most of my sound guy experience has been incorrect witchcraft-mythology. Gain Structure has come into my life now. I want to know how to do the outdoor method that I have seen discussed here. I have made several presets for my system using custom settings for all components in some presets, those that the DRPA+ has in others. I have an Allen & Heath 16:2 W3 console, 2 QSC 153i speakers on top of 2 Peavey PV118 subs that are driven by a QSC GX5 each. I have only been able to "pink" one venue and my results were good despite tables, walls, boundarys etc. I can use the setup wizard and make a new preset in a matter of minutes if I have to and am not afraid to do it. I just want to know step by step how to try the outdoor method for the "pink." Do I create a new preset for it? The one time I tried it the cycle would not finish. I have read about the DRPA+ stopping if 4 bands are maxed. Also about the stereo-mono thing, it trying to listen to the other stack. I'm thinking that I started with imperfect understanding of how to do it from the beginning. Otherwise, my sound guy (I'm really a 12 string player) experience has vastly improved from the purchase and learning curve associated with the DRPA+. I'm just a nit picker seeking perfection--if it takes forever.
George

Dra

The purpose of the outdoor method is to get a flat and balanced system. For this you should only set up 1 complete stack (not 2).
After the "auto" features are complete, transfer the data from the GEQ to the PEQ's. Some playing and guessing is usually required and may take several "re-do" to get it right. Seeing how different Q's react, and how adjacent filters react to each other. The goal after tranferring the data is a finished Auto-EQ that has very little varience from -0-.
Humps or dips at the x-over point may require some "serparation" or "over-lap" of the filters, or maybe a raising or lowering of the filter gain without the change of the frequency.
That is odd about it not completing outdoors. Maybe mic placement. Typically, you place the mic directly in front of the speakers 8-20 ft away. The height of the mic should be pointed between the horn and the woofer of the QSC.
Grass is better that asphault, asphault better than cement. No structures on the sides closer than 25 ft. No structures behind the mic closer than 50 ft. No structure behind the speakers closer than 20 ft. The more open the better. The key is no reflections and no standing waves, etc.


DRA

Gadget

Ok, so you've been reading... but have you seen the FAQ section?
viewforum.php?f=60

And these threads within it?

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=949


and the start here thread where e go through a whole setup?

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959

With the DRPA+ the sequence is a little different...but esentially the same..

In the wizard if you set up stereo it will do the Auto EQ in one pass... if you select dual mono it will want to do each stack separately... or in the case of mains and monitors on one unit the mains, then the monitors....

The first thing after the wizard setup is the auto balance... and depending on the setup it could take 6 separate moves to get through that alone(dual mono 2X6 ) Here whats happening is the RTA mic is looking to balance the different elements... if you found the amps in the menu and speakers it will have you set the input sensitivity for the amps and then it will play a tone in the given band and adjust from there... if you entered custom amps it works the same way, simply follow the prompts...

The Auto EQ on the DRPA+ is super fast... my speakers took only about 5 seconds...and the DRPA+ never said not done... no matter where I put the mic...

Make sure if your going to do the outdoor method that you find a place away from all reflective surfaces... trees are a reflective surface...BTW

I'd start out about 8 feet out and one stack only... and use -0- flat response, this will create a flat preset for multiple purposes as stated in the FAQ and start here posts...

Gadget

georgesguitars

I have not read every post on this forum, but the "Read Me First," "FAQ"and "One Button Push And Everything Will Be Awesome" I have read and re-read obsessively. I just got hung up at auto level before. Today, I let it tell me that the system wasn't balanced and proceeded to auto eq anyway. Those QSC speakers must shoot pretty flat because any of the curves I chose; "flat", "my band", "performance venue" etc, was the exact eq I was left with each time at the end of the auto eq process. That's right, I didn't just shoot for a flat curve. I experimented because I have to learn the hard way. I used those presets tonight though with no trouble. You have to do the AFS when you do the setup though, right? I wasn't able to do that at the venue and didn't do it when I auto eq'd outdoors earlier today. I still had the live filters to use. But I very rarely ever get feedback anymore so it was not even a worry. I run an open mic every week here in Roanoke, VA. Also my girlfriend and I perform as an acoustic duo, Bleecker Street and have a band, Rose And The Rebels. This P.A. will get the use. From acoustic performers to bands everyone loves our sound now. Thanks for assisting me with my learning curve. I may have more questions later. Wait, Gadget's reply just came in ...Oops. I only setup stereo for a pair of the presets. It still wanted to stop me at auto level--Not Done. I went past it. If it's wrong I still benefited from the results and the experience. I will now concentrate on Gadget's reply and do more outside on turkey day.

Gadget

I believe you will need to get the mic farther away for the "My band" and "Performance venue" to have a bigger effect. The "flat" preset is there and works well because the speakers are producing all acoustic energy equally... this means that the 50 hz, 150hz, 320hz, 630hz, 1.5k, 3.5k, 12k and everything in between on the ISO centers will all have the same acoustic energy.

Remember that the speakers frequency response CHANGES with volume... that is to say that if you auto eq @ 97db and play @ 105... the speaker will no longer have the same response you set up @97db...

What procedure are you using during the auto level portion of the wizard setup?
g

georgesguitars

I did them all from scratch with the setup wizard. Sometimes I would enter custom for the components, sometimes I would enter my actual speakers, subs and amps. I would load the new preset and continue with auto level. The one time I did it in the venue it went through the whole process having me adjust amp volumes, comparing top and bottom, left and right etc. Then I was able to auto eq and AFS. Outside it would not complete the auto level portion but would allow me to auto eq after. Whether I input specs or used custom settings the auto level said not done. Whether I chose stereo or mono/stereo linked it said not done. I have assumed this was normal as I was trying to shoot only one stack and it was trying to listen for two. In any event I wound up with several useful presets even though I did not do AFS at that time. I assumed it would let me do it later at the venue. AFS was painless there when I did it the one time. You must realise that even if I'm screwing up somehow, our sound is way better than before I purchased these speakers and driverack. My ear annoys me mostly, but acoustic guitars now have a nice thump even if I only mic them, no pick ups. I mean out in the audience the guitar sounds like a real guitar, not tinny, twangy or bottom heavy. This is not the stopping point for me though. I will concentrate on the flat auto eq. I need to practice using the PEQ after. I have a PX on the way just for monitors, QSC K12s. I will be experimenting with the indoor method for those.
Thanks for the info about mic placement for the performance venue and my band curves. I honestly don't know what db I run. I pink as loud as it will go before it says turn down level, hoping it's enough.
Sorry I'm so wordy. Somewhere in this may be the facts. Mostly though, it's excitement and direction you're reading. Joy even. I wish I could study and work on this stuff all day long. I'm seeking perfection under imperfect circumstances which requires constant work and thought.
Thanks for your efforts dealing with us posters, different from each other as we may be, to keep us on the path of truth.

georgesguitars

I am curious. Why would DRPA+ choose 180hz as my crossover point every time I tell it what actual components I have, not using custom. The Peavey PV118 literature says no higher than 150hz. Of course I have been experimenting live with that...

Gadget

Ya I know... Jim and I argued with the engineers about that but that is what the manufacturer specifies, odr if they do NOT specify anything ... and that is what they set...THAT IS WRONG...the subs would sound honky...some of the Yorkville subs are listed like that... we prefer (especially if your a novice) 100hz LR24... Simply set the LPF/HPF yourself.
You could go as low as 90hz with you setup...

Gadget

Dra

georgesguitars wrote:

I am curious. Why would DRPA+ choose 180hz as my crossover point every time I tell it what actual components I have, not using custom. The Peavey PV118 literature says no higher than 150hz. Of course I have been experimenting live with that...

That's why we normally say, "Forget the wizard.". Rarely is it good to have the subs over 120hz. 180 would put some vocals in the subs. :?

DRA

Dr. J

Hey George - you sound like where I was at about a year ago. I am a guitar player as well that got tired of my guitar sounding like garbage through local guys PA. I dove in head first and it was very painful process but now I feel that I have a good base for the essential part of setting up your sound system. After all -- Everything you are asking -- is pretty much the same stuff I asked. Gadget, Dra & Dennis have been my biggest mentors for this past year and there is alot to learn but in the end -- you will be the guru in town. If you are still interested I will shoot you a PM and give you my email address.

georgesguitars

Thanks for everyone's replies. UPS did NOT deliver the PX today. Restaurant work. Black Friday. It'll all have to wait until Monday. I hope everyone had a good Holiday.

georgesguitars

Dr. J
Your words give me hope. I have a cadre of underplayed musicians who attend our weekly open mic and those that have been hired to play our venue are a lot of them depending on me. Yes, I am seeking world domination...no, no, not really, but this gear and this knowledge will benefit others, not just me--our fledgling little music scene. Just purchasing the speakers and driverack was not enough. I rehearsed with it all before setting it up properly--I was in a hurry, it was late, the stuff was new. We've played out with it already after tuning it. What a difference. "If it sounds good it is good," someone said once. Even a novice can do it. I'm serious, cause that's me.

Gadget

George,
I started in this business when a crossover was unheard of...the Line array was the Shure column speakers and the mixer and amp had 50 watts of tube power and 4 channels.. a mere 10 years ago I too was in the dark till the digital age brought me into the light.. I am still somewhat an analog "purist" sort of guy, but it's REALLY hard to argue with the resu;ts you can get with the Driverack!

You will enjoy! I can tell...

G

georgesguitars

Well, I guess everyone is having a good laugh, I would've. Today was a big pink day outside and inside. During this I learned that the AFS has a wizard button and I can AFS ANYTIME I WANT!!??!!?!?!? (caps self inflicted)(what an idiot). Also equally idiotic was my thinking that I had to use the setup wizard with auto level to get to the auto eq. Guess what? THERE'S A BUTTON FOR AUTO EQ THAT I CAN USE ANYTIME THAT SUITS ME. (??!??!) (don't worry, just yelling at meself...again) I spent time in the old forum this weekend preparing for all this testing. Should I expect the GEQ to change when I set the PEQs based on a pink? I would turn off the GEQ after I approximated the settings of the GEQ on the PEQ, leaving the PEQ on. Then I would repink, noticing the same frequencies were cut-boosted etc. Are all the EQs bypassed by the autoEQ? I expected to see a flatter GEQ after setting PEQs and doing the second pink, based on some of what I read. The HPR153i crosses @ 500hz and 2000hz. Could I get a short range pink @ the tweeter for the 2000 and up, set #3 PEQ based on that, then back the mic off and aim at the middle, pinking for 500 and above (ignoring the GEQ for 2000 and above which I just put on PEQ 3?), setting those values on PEQ 2, then move down and back to pink the woofer, setting those values on PEQ 1 (based on a wavelength chart)? Am I making more work out of this than it has to be? People have accused me of reinventing the wheel when I need to go somewhere. I may be the child that needs to know, "WHY?" Also, if you run amps and speakers just under the clipping point (after gain structure) and then do an auto level, DRPA+ puts a clipping level of pink noise in short bursts through the speakers. That can't be good can it? Now that I know about the Auto EQ button, that will never happen again. (idiot) I think--I work--I screw up--I think some more--I work some more--do I get it right before I die?

Dra

Since the DR is matched to the mixer's clip level (actually 16-18db max on the DR) and the amp is actually matched to the mixer, then the DR can't clip the amps without going above 16db(?). No worries.
You are pinking the cabinet (actually the system), not the components. Many times a problem area is the x-over point. Your method could never fix that.

DRA

Gadget

would turn off the GEQ after I approximated the settings of the GEQ on the PEQ, leaving the PEQ on. Then I would re-pink, noticing the same frequencies were cut-boosted etc. Are all the EQs bypassed by the autoEQ?

Sounds like you didn't turn the PEQ's on... :?: That is exactly what would happen....

I would turn off the GEQ after I approximated the settings of the GEQ on the PEQ, leaving the PEQ on.

After you have done your PEQ work (making sure they are on ) simply zero (flatten) the GEQ and try again you can do this by toggling to the GEQ opening screen...

Could I get a short range pink @ the tweeter for the 2000 and up, set #3 PEQ based on that, then back the mic off and aim at the middle, pinking for 500 and above (ignoring the GEQ for 2000 and above which I just put on PEQ 3?), setting those values on PEQ 2, then move down and back to pink the woofer, setting those values on PEQ 1 (based on a wavelength chart)?

no, the mic is omni-directional... so it's hearing the other components unless your millimeters away form one or the other of the components...like inside the horn for instance...

Am I making more work out of this than it has to be?

Yes, The PEQ transfer is not simple, but effective if you take the major cuts or boosts and work them first, let the final auto eq take care of the small adjustments. Some experimenting on the amount of cut or boost and the "Q" of it are necessary till you get a feel for PEQ work.

Also, if you run amps and speakers just under the clipping point (after gain structure) and then do an auto level, DRPA+ puts a clipping level of pink noise in short bursts through the speakers.

NO NO NO...the auto balance is supposed to go directly after the system setup... xover setup/component selection, BEFORE the auto eq... the reason they added the auto level was many novices didn't have the system roughed in (level wise... as in the subs balanced with tops... or mids loud with respect to the subs and highs in a three way system... etc...) before they auto eq'ed and so the product would be massive cuts and boosts of entire groups of frequencies. Lows indoors is ALWAYS a crap shoot because of standing waves, so anything below 170hz is suspect, and should be eq'd by ear.

if you run amps and speakers just under the clipping point

you don't clip the speakers... you clip the amps and THAT can cause problems for the speakers because when you see the clip light go on the amp is DOUBLING its output to answer the call for MORE POWER! This is the speaker killing kind of smoke letting out event we all would like to avoid at all cost...right :shock:

(idiot) I think--I work--I screw up--I think some more--I work some more--do I get it right before I die?

A mistake is definite proof that there was an attempt to do something... can't make a mistake without trying... do you think Edison got it right first try.. or even the hundredth? No, it took perseverance and fortitude. This new digital loudspeaker management system is complex at the least, and there is SOOOO much you can do but there is a steep learning curve first... perhaps allowing the auto eq to set the speaker system then use the PEQ bands available for system tailoring would be better for you...set a PEQ band on 60hz, 350hz and 3.5khz and set a broad q like 1.5 @ 60 hz and 1.0 Q @ 350, and 3.5k...the one @ 350 is a particularly troublesome frequency indoors, and can rob intelligibility from the system. so typically that would be used in a cut... the 60 hz is also a typical front loaded sub high efficiency point, but moving it around will help identify the offending frequency and then using the "Q" and cut and boost to define the problem frequencies and fix them.

Your getting.. probably not as fast as you'd like... but you have to walk to learn to run... the FAQ section has a lot of these topics covered and tips and tricks... much of them were written pre- DRPA+ but then it was built on the DRPA platform and isn't THAT different... press on and keep learning...were here for all the questions you have...

Gadget

Dr. J

Hey George -- I sent you a PM (Private Message). After you log in on the forum look at the top next to FAQ's and click on "New Messages". In this section you can privately email someone if you wish. We ususally reserve this for "Off Topic" type of stuff so we don't jam up the forum with junk. Anyway -- my email address is there so we can talk OFF the forum. You have ALOT of questions that I know I can help you with & IF you want to get Gadget, Dra & Dennis involved for confirmation that's cool. I won't tell you anything that they wouldn't say BECAUSE they taught me everything I know.

Dra

Remember that this forum is to help solve problems. If you go off line with discussions that in some way could be helpful to others, be sure to post them here (even if after the fact), so others can benefit. Especially with the DRPA+, since it is the newest with different tools from the other DR's.

DRA

Dr. J

Sure Dra absolutely.........

georgesguitars

Well, I'm satisfied for now. I haven't re-posted in awhile due to hard drive failure, operating system install etc. There are no worries, however. A couple of weeks ago I did outside tests on both the stack; QSC GX5(600w) running a Peavey PV118 sub under a QSC 153i, and the monitor; QSC K12, separately of course. I set PEQs, retested etc. Indoors the K12 shot pretty flat, but outdoors there was more EQ work to do. I didn't get to use the presets for several days. I was nervous about them because they were so different from the others I'd made. I set up in our venue and used the AFS on monitors first then mains. Dr J and I were e-mailing back and forth during this time. (I lost his e-mail during the hard drive crash and OS install) He mentioned that sometimes the AFS might, at times add an "alien" tint to the sound. I have to be honest, the only thing "alien" about the sound this gear makes now is that "it's out of this world." I just love to hear a crisp acoustic guitar that thumps at the same time. I have the PV 118s on their sides in the center, touching in front of the stage (having seen "Ripple" and feeling underpowered). The monitors I put beside the subs. The mains I have put both on the floor or up on a boundary. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to make this stuff sound less than great. Now, if I can only learn to mix...another topic for another time.posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=2155#