Should I upgrade from the Driverack PA to the PA+ or other u
lamdig
Posts: 13
I have a Driverack PA. I also own Yorkville Unity U215 tops & Yoirkville Elite LS2104 subs. I have not yet finalized my amplifier purchases. However, I will be buying either QSC or CROWN amps. I want to know if there is any advantage to upgrading to a different Driverack unit, at the very least because more of my gear is/will be already preset in the units and others can be downloaded USB? I want to know if there is really much of a difference in setting up and optimizing the entire PA system long-term versus gig-specific setup if you have all of the gear loaded into the Driverack unit versus using my currect Driverack unit. I am musician who is now a gear owner, but not a sound tech!
At this point my choices are are either 2, 3 or 4 amp stereo/bridged combinations of:
QSC:
• U215s: PLX2 1802, 2502, 3102 or 3602
• Subs: Bridged 3602’s or an RMX 5050, etc.
CROWN:
• U215s: XTi 2000, 4000, 6000
• Subs: XTi 6000 or other model
The Driverack PA does not have either of my speakers as preset tunings. The PA+ has the LS2104 subs loaded, but I do not think the U215s. The Driverack PA has all of the QSC amps loaded, as well as the XTis with the exception of the XTi 6000. PA+ appears to bo be the same.
Speaker specs are:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... =38&id=268
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... t=2&id=380
Comments?
At this point my choices are are either 2, 3 or 4 amp stereo/bridged combinations of:
QSC:
• U215s: PLX2 1802, 2502, 3102 or 3602
• Subs: Bridged 3602’s or an RMX 5050, etc.
CROWN:
• U215s: XTi 2000, 4000, 6000
• Subs: XTi 6000 or other model
The Driverack PA does not have either of my speakers as preset tunings. The PA+ has the LS2104 subs loaded, but I do not think the U215s. The Driverack PA has all of the QSC amps loaded, as well as the XTis with the exception of the XTi 6000. PA+ appears to bo be the same.
Speaker specs are:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... =38&id=268
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... t=2&id=380
Comments?
0
Comments
Further I would be surprised to see ANY update for the DRPA+ for some time to come... jumping to the 260 would make more sense..HOWEVER...
My recommendation is as follows...
Subs: one Xti 4000 bridged mono per.. OR for some headroom Xti 6000
Tops One Xti 4000 stereo 4 ohms for 1200 watts or one Xti 2000 per cab in bridged mono for a little headroom
PLUS the Crown XTi series has built in DSP and possesses the better limiters and enough delay to properly align those speakers... Don't fret, well help get those set up for you...
Oh and NSL has the best prices on those amps BTW...
The DRPA plus does have a far superior auto EQ algorithm, and it's wicked fast... and it has mutes for all outputs and no turn off thump...So it is better than the DRPA but still not even close to the DR260...
Gadget
Before we get back to the Driverack question.....
Interesting comments you make on the amp configurations. While QSC and CROWN vendors and users are unanimous in NOT using Yorkville/AUDIOPRO amps to drive my speakers (the speak of "tone" and actual versus stated power, etc.), everybody has their 2 cents worth on bridging versus stereo operation of these amps, and whose (XTI vs PLXs) have the most problems such as overheating, etc.. That is, those who believe that you must provide at least 100% - 125% of the program rating for my cabinets (1600 w @ 4 Ohms for the tops, 3000 w @ 4 Ohnms for the 21-inch subs) which pretty much ropes me into bridged operation with amps that claim stability at 2 Ohms, or.............using stereo operation at 4 Ohms which of course provides <100% of the cabinet rating.
An important consideration for me will be of course how many amps to buy (somewhat less of an issue) for mostly small "bar" gigs versus available power (a much bigger issue) to run the amps while also dealing with FOH, Backline and lighting gear. So perhaps you can further comment on this before we get back to Driverack issue.
Hmmm...I don't have any problem with Yorkville amps... I own Yorkville Elite 2204 speakers and like them fine...I guess I probably don't get what you mean because in amp shootouts with blind testing it's pretty impossible to pick out your "favorite" amp de-jour...from the lot.
Now here we have the crux of the biscuit...I, am of the too much power is never enough... Tim the tool man ARGH ARGH ARGH :!: :!: :!: I say this because I have never destroyed a speaker with to much power... "technically"
Now, that said let me tell you what DOES fry speakers... Lets say you have an amp rated @ 800 watts @ 4 ohms...perfect for a 800 watt speaker like your (400 watts continuous 800 watts program... 1600 peak) ... and fine for light rock with a duty cycle of 1/8th power...this is the way most amp mfgr's rate their amps current draw...@ 1/8 power the XTI 4000 draws a max 10.5 amps in stereo... this would be akin to... America - ZZ Top music done by a garage band, on a standard system in a small club... maybe running 108-110db ..(that same amp when in bridged mode driving subs hard can draw nearly 30 amps!) Now you start getting into more volume heavy situations like outdoors and you need MORE out of your system so you start pushing that 800 watt amp to the point of clipping... now the amp is DOUBLING its output, and the amp isn't doing it gracefully...the power supply is sagging...the voice coils are heating hp and the smoke is starting to come out...BAD JUJU...
Now lets look at the same system with plenty of power to meet that 1600 watt peak power mark your speakers can take for very short periods...the amp isn't working hard... the power supply is robust and can do this all day and all night... it runs cool, and draws FAR LESS CURRENT and doesn't heat the voice coils as much, AND has plenty of horsepower in reserve! Win Win!!!
Drive those amps hard all the time and they are not going to last as long!
Here we like to speak of the best way to get things done... my recommendations would be for a system that would be robust... do what you ask and be efficient as well...
Gadget
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... =38&id=268
Am I correct in assuming your statment on "(400 watts continuous - 800 watts program - 1600 peak)" stems from speaker "norms" (1600 pgm/peak divided by 2 divided by 2)?
I am leaning towards a 3 or 4 amp comfiguration of:
Subs: One Xti 4000 bridged mono per for 3200 w each (vs possibly using Xti 6000's which is quite expensive and adds to the problem of enough circuits/amperage to run the rig in typical rooms)
Tops: Either One Xti 4000 stereo 4 ohms for 1200 watts/channel or an Xti 2000 per cab in bridged mono (2000 w) for a little headroom. Another option woiuld be running an XTi 6000 in stereo for the tops (2100 w @ 4 Ohms) although a pair of XTi 2000's are cheaper than an XTi 6000.
Even our local CROWN/QSC dealer told me he is not a fan of running amps in bridged/2 Ohm mode. Please comment on this and then I can update this post with my final amp configuration tomorrow.
Are there any inherent advantages or disadvantages to these possible setups when using my DRIVERACK PA?
G
Also, regarding the bi-amp question, would the tops really perform/sound better, and if so why? I assume by your comment on the XTi 1000 reqt if I go biamp...........I would then need:
2 * XTi 4000's for subs in bridged mode, plus
either:
1 * XTi 4000 in stereo (1200 w/ch.) for 2*15's + 1 * XTi 1000 in stereo (500 w/ch.) for the horns?
..or is there a better setup? Using an XTi 6000 in stereo for the tops provide a 1 stop "non-biamp" solution. Also, it appears the DRPA handles any of these setups?
...as before, this bass player/gear owner appreciates your advice. Cheers
That is TOTALLY wrong... Yes a speaker has multiple impedance's in that the impedance is frequency related...HOWEVER, the rated impedance (in this case 4 ohms ) is usually the LOWEST impedance an amplifier will see.. now, Impedance is NOT resistance.. its REACTANCE , and that is a combination of the resistance and other forces the amps need to deal with...Where you get this 2 ohm load from I can't figure:?: :?: :?:
Ok, let's look at the anatomy of a 2 ohm (stereo) load... ( 2 ohm stereo is the ONLY way to do this unless your dealing with an amp that is UNREAL in ability... and STABILITY...like the Powersoft amps...).. and car audio amps...I have 8 proprietary EV S181's (single 18" turbo manifold) that are 8 ohms (6.3 ohms nominal DC resistance) I ran (for a year) 4 per channel on a QSC RMX4050 ...running as lo mids...(55-120hz) otherwise ... DO NOT RUN @ UNDER 4 OHMS BRIDGED!!!!!
Now, as for Bi-amped... you will gain more output than you will believe! What is at work here is the elimination of the passive crossover(actually one of the things that REALLY ppisses me off about Yorkville is they are so tight lipped about tunings and information about their products!!! ARGH!!!) , which saps a lot of power in the form of heat loss as it diverts all the low frequency information going to the high frequencies to ground... Actually I'm sure they are Bi-ampable but do you think I can find conformation about it... NOOOO Anyway... BUT the tops actually possess midrange drivers and a HF driver and actually go from 300hz up, so a bi-amp setup would be a low (from whatever the sub/low mid cross would be)... and the 300hz up for the hi-mid high..
ANY passive crossover ... WILL sap a LOT of power (especially in the low frequencies) So, bi-amping will increase the output by a very appreciable amount!
G
"A bridged amplifier or H-bridge is a configuration for creating a larger output voltage swing than that possible with one amplifier by inverting a second amplifier and connecting the load (such as a loudspeaker) between the two outputs (BTL = bridge-tied load).
The image shows two identical amplifiers A1 and A2 connected in bridge configuration. If a single amplifier is able to produce ±10 V relative to ground (20 Vp-p), then the second amplifier will output the same signal, but inverted. If the load is connected between the positive ("hot") outputs of the two amplifiers (instead of connecting between one output and ground), it can see up to 10 V − (−10 V) = ±20 V (or 40 Vp-p) total, which is twice what each individual amplifier can put out. Driving the load in antiphase makes each amplifier see only half the load's impedance."
Stolen off the internet with no permission whatsoever.
Dennis
I met with the local QSC & CROWN vendor today and feel like I made a wee bit 'o progress. He suggests 2 options, all CROWN-based.
1. 3-way set up using XTi 2000 for horns, XTi 4000 for mids, XTi 6000 for subs, all in stereo.
2. XTi 200o stereo for tops + 1 XTi 4000 for mids + 1 XTi 4000 for subs
The Driverack PA manual has amplifier tunings for XTi 1000 / 2000 / 4000 but not the 6000. Neither of my speakers (U215, LS2104) are in the presets. The Driverack PA+ has the XTi 6000 and my LS2104 subs, but not the U215 tops which have 45-20K freq. response and crossover pts of 300/1250 (it does have the E2152 tops which are 45-20K and crossover at 1500). I assume (hope) I don’t need to get the PA+ even if I go 3 way as you will optimize the system for me?
One thing he pointed out was that my U215's passive crossover is 300 Hz but the subs are rated for 32-200 Hz so I am missing the 200-300 Hz info which running 3 ways can be rectified.
Does anyone have any convincing arguments that suggest I should upgrade to the PA+?
The thing is.. the QSC guy wasn't taking into consideration how LOW you want to go... to get into the lower 40 hz range will take POWER..
G
Let me clear my throat....
It's the strain put on the power supply. Think of it as the four ohm load (amp bridged) taking a double bite (one for each phase), which is 2 ohms (combined).
DRA