kick drum in mids alot

maddog

I am running my DRPA+ in 2x6 and the kick drum is in the midrange seems more than anything, and also heard a few clicks in the highs, not good.
The subs are Carvin lsx 218's with Carvin 2500 amps.
The mains are Carvin lsx 1532's with Crown xls 802 for mids and Crown xls 202 for highs.
I went through the set up wizard with the rta mic and everything sounds great with programed music but when I go and start tuning the band I cant get beyond the kick.
Subs are not in your chest and like said coming through the mids a lot. I tried adjusting the mids out manually with the crossover and I have to take them way out to get the kick out of the mids even somewhat.
Please help.
Thank you

Dra

How do you have the x-overs set up?
The thing to remember is that components of the kick will, at least, be in the sub AND mid range and likely in the horn as well, depending on the x-over frequency.

DRA

maddog

Ok I'm assuming this could be part of it, it's the setting the RTA gave me when I set it up.

Low 35.5 to 100hz --- bw 6 --- = 0.2 db
mid 100hz to 6.70khz --- bw 6 --- 0.0 db
high 6.70khz --- bw 12 --- 16.0 db

Thank you all for the help.

Dra

maddog wrote:

Ok I'm assuming this could be part of it, it's the setting the RTA gave me when I set it up.

Low 35.5 45hz @BW18to 100hz --- bw 6 LR24--- = 0.2 db
mid 100hz LR24to 6.70khz --- bw 6 --- 0.0 db?
high 6.70khz --- bw 12 --- 16.0 db?

Thank you all for the help.

Couldn't find anything on the LSX1532 on the Carvin site to comment on the high x-over (or why it's that high).

DRA

maddog

Ok the LSX are discontinued last year because they had duratex finish. The LS series is the same thing only with carpet.

Its lsx 1523 sorry my mistake.
Heres a link to get you to the LS 1523's

http://www.carvinguitars.com/ls/

Thanks

Dra

OK, using the set-up like you had it the 6" mids were thrown away among other issues.
In bi-amp mode the 6"s and the horn are together with a passive x-over between them.
Subs - 40 (BW18) - 90 (LR24) About 1 octive
Mids (15") - 90 (LR24) - 500 (LR24) About 2.5 octives
Highs (6" + horn) - 500 (LR24) - out About 2 octives / 3 octives

DRA

Gadget

Ok, I don't understand your crossover strategy AT ALL! First the use of BW6 xovers is allowing a hell of a lot of crossover interaction... and that 35.5 hz HPF is a bit optomistic with the amount of power you have...

second what the heck are you doing with a crossover @ 6.7khz? this is strange... VERY strange...since the speakers (dual 15" 3 ways with a pair of 15", a pair of 6" (not 16 inch like in the spec sheet :roll:) mids crossed @ 500 hz, and a 1.5" diaphragm crossed @ 2.5khz... so let me ask....":what the heck is with a 6.7khz cross?" If you were going to run three way, you would use the specs I laid out above, I assume perahps you can also go 2 way? Actually as I look at the speaker it shows NO bi-amp/tri-amp capability!! :?

You know, most of your model # are wrong.. is it an LS218 or an LS1802? Does the LSX1523 have bi-amp or other than fullrange capability?

The way I see it the first step is to straiten out this crossover thing THEN see what happens with the kick...

Set a MINIMUM 40 hz BW18 HPF for the subs (I'd lean toward 45 hz)
Set a 100hz LR24 LPF for the subs
Set a 100hz LR24 HPF for the tops and IF the tops are Bi-ampable.... set the LPF @ 500hz LR24 HOWEVER if you only have one 802 amp for the mids and one 202 amp for the upper mids/hi's you only have 400 watts per 15" and 300 total watts for 2 6" and 1 horn...UNDER POWERED!

And you want in your chest thump? I know I shouldn't "assume" here but... 2 LS 1802 subs and 2 DCM2500's running in bridged??? because that would only give you 1250 watts per driver...on a sub rated @ 1600/3200 (the 3200 would give each speaker 1600 watts and would be closer to that subs rated power but with little extra for headroom... if you have 2 subs and only one amp... well :roll:

Now once you get THAT straitened out ... hopefully you have a mixer with sweepable mids? (again you should have provided ALL the CORRECT system info... you did not... as proscribed in the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING section... :oops: If you do... set the frequency control of the MID EQ on 250hz and use the gain control to CUT this frequency (and the surrounding ones covered in the frequencies slops of the filter..(meaning it will loser the gain of the 100-400 hz frequencies) now you can play with that point and gain to fine tune...but idea here is to cut the primary frequency of the kick and allow the secondary frequency (about 80hz) be the kick frequency your amplifying...and I LIKE a click... and that is in the 2k area...

Gadget

maddog

That really cleaned up the sub and no vocals or anything coming through.
Now on the highs, 500 hz on out the kick is really coming through alot. Afraid of blowing them.
Any suggestions
Thanks so much

Gadget

MADDOG your not getting it...you need to provide ALL THE SYSTEM INFO... ACCURATELY!!!

and as for your communication skills...

That really cleaned up the sub and no vocals or anything coming through.

WHAT really cleaned up the the sub? 90 hz... 100 hz... crossover ...sweepable mid channel eq...????

Do you KNOW where the FAQ section is> the START HERE thread? HAve you done a gain structure? WHAT mixer...WHAT kick mic... WHAT kick drum... is there a hole in the resonant head...dude your NOT giving us the information we need AND ASKED FOR!!!

Have you done a gain structure?

:roll:

maddog

Ok what I meant was the sub is really kickin know, and what you said was nice because theirs no vocals or anything else mudding up the sub.
Ya I know I have a hard time communicating on the computer to what I want to say.

Yes I did a gain structure.
Yamaha MG24/14FX Mixer
Sure PG52 mic
Mapex Kick drum (cheaper one)

It sounds awesome the way you said to set it, but I'm concerned about the kick, it comes through the mids and highs still.

Dennis

The kick is suppose to come through the mids and highs but earlier in the thread you said the high out was set at +16dB...did you change that when you changed the xo point? It seems a tad excessive.

Dennis

maddog

Yes I did change it down to +3 db.
Where I'm getting confused in all this is the RTA analysis it gave me in the first place. It sounded great with programmed music and I was excited, but when I started to tune the band to it everything was different sounding than the previous crossover, as in hearing a lot more kick in the mids than I'm used to and in the highs. As far as I've ever known you shouldn't get kick in the highs, well I guess I was wrong.

I'm now assuming that dra meant 5.00 khz and not 500hz, because 500hz is where I ended up at after his recommendation. Am I Right?
The reading I've done sais they want the internal crossover to take care of some frequencies also so that's why I tried 500.
I'm not trying to rattle feather's I just want to get all this right.

Thanks guys

Dra

I meant 500hz.
Think about it...
If the 15"'s are expected to reproduce to 5000hz (5K), which they can't by the way, and the internal passive x-over is FIXED at 2500hz (between the 6"s and the horn) then the 6"s are completely bypassed, because they are cut off at 2500hz by the passive x-over.
It is hard to get a 15 to work well (good) over 2000hz. So, you end up deficient between 2k (or lower) and 2.5K and nothing up to 5K.

The good thing is that you ended up at 500hz, where you should have been.

DRA

Gadget

well, if we had ALL the information (we are still lacking a LOT OF INFO) we might be better equipped to help...

1. on the back of the LSX 1523... is there a fullrange AND bi-amp input? how about TRI-amp input? we have NO information about these speakers and the LS 1523 have ONLY fullrange speakon and 1/4" inputs...

2. If ... as we are led to believe... that these are in fact Bi-amp speakers...the mid hi (6" speakers x 2) and the hi horn have a crossover that takes care of the crossover from the 6" hi mids to the horn @ 2.5khz...so, we are allowing the dual 15" speakers to handle up to 500 hz, and then from 500 hz up we have the 2, 6" speakers and the horn with a passive crossover...

3. you have 1 XLS 202 and one XLS 802 correct?

4. and you have 2 subs? and 2 DCM 2500 amps that you are running bridged?

5. So if the above is true then yes...the ...
a. subs are 45-100 hz,
b. the 15" are 100- 500hz,
c. the highs are 500 hz up...

6. you can control the amount of HF and mid info the kick has in the tops using the channel strip eq as I said in a former post... are you trying that?

your former setup was WRONG... so lets not dwell on it but suffice it to say that the 15" were asked to do what the 6" should have been doing...

I'm now assuming that dra meant 5.00 khz and not 500hz, because 500hz is where I ended up at after his recommendation. Am I Right?
The reading I've done sais they want the internal crossover to take care of some frequencies also so that's why I tried 500.
I'm not trying to rattle feather's I just want to get all this right.

you are wrong here... see above... 500 hz xover point and LR 24 filters... then gain structure... are you sure you know how to do this?

Gadget

maddog

Thanks guys I did sat and sunday with a kick trigger (DM5 and red shot) and had huge kick but no chest thump, close though very close cant complain.

Your cross settings was right on and souded better than ever. I should read more on the speaker freq's from now on and not get confused on the specs they give from carvin.

Your right the mains have a biamp switch on the back and are biamped with an NL4.

What amps would you recommend for this settup no matter what brand or using current amps for something else in the settup?

Gadget your correct on my current settup in your last post.

Gadget

Put the 802 0n the hi's put the 2500's on the mids, and get a couple of Crown XTi4000's for the subs.... then you MIGHT get the thump your looking for...Those are cheapest @ Northern Sound and Light...
G

maddog

Ok I'll order a couple them within a week, have a pretty good size gig coming at the end of the month so I want to be ready.
How about any AC power issues running that kind of wattage. A lot of these places only have two 20 amp outlets near the stage. A hand full of them have a dryer style 220 that I can run my own box off of. What would you do, do you tell them to run more power?
Or am i going to need it?

Gadget

Those XTi's are VERY power friendly! I think you'll be ok in the clubs with the 2~ 20 amp circuits... I did a gig with
1 Macrotech 3600
1 QCS 4050 HD
1 Carver M1.0T
2 QSC RMX 2450
2 Crown D75

For a gig with 2 LABsubs, and 4 12" 2 way tops with 2 " horns, and 4 bi-amp monitors...all on a 20 amp circuit running 105-110db spl @ 7-10 meters... anything over that and I blew the circuits...

Those are ALL iron horse amps... with big transformers and that suck huge power... especially the Mac 3600 and the HD 4050...If you need to run over 110db you may have a problem, but otherwise I see no big issues. Now, if you expect to open those babies up...you will need more power.
G

Dennis

maybe this is the solution...http://www.motionlabs.com

Gadget

Wow! That's a beautiful thing there!

He would have to tap into the main panel for the venue to use that...I would hook that baby up in a second...but what if the venue forbids you access...(OR it's too remote )... to far away for your distro's cable... or you DON"T have any business hooking into the main panel, it's dangerous.. and if you don't know what your doing

Dennis

This 3 space Rac Pac comes in several different configurations but I chose this because it is the beefiest one. You could pick one with different input connectors or make adapters that will work with receptacles in the various venues you set up in. Of course, only an electrician should tap bare wires into a panel!

I don't know the current price but a few years ago Motion Labs was selling these to end users for $425 which was just a little bit less than the cost of parts to build one.

Dennis

maddog

Them are nice units, I made a sub panel about ten years ago out of extra electrical hardware I had.
It almost looks like a stage snake but, breakers, outlets and 50' of 10/3 to whatever plug I need for the venue. I have only needed it a hand full of times but the larger we get the more it will be used I think.

So back to the Drive rack, I'm learning more about it everyday and starting to feel comfortable with it. like any new toy I guess it takes time and throwing them speakers in there really had me messed up.

Glad I found this forum with guys like ya'll. 8)

maddog

Been waiting to ask this but here goes.
The last gig was a 60' long and 30' wide room with subs stack on each other, satisfied with the setting you guys gave. Concrete floor lots of people dancing and at the tables. 12' ceiling with panels.
Subs - 45 (BW18) - 100 (LR24)
Mids (15") - 100 (LR24) - 500 (LR24)
Highs (6" + horn) - 500 (LR24)

Next gig will be 50' long and 40' wide and not as many people at all, outdoor carpet and 10' ceiling with panels. subs will also be stacked together here.

What direction should I lean toward on the crossover to keep the sound I had last week, if any different setting. I would like to keep the kick tight and punchy around 80hz and get the mids (vocals) to project farther out than the last gig though. Mids are about 7'6" high.
Will still have the same amps as last week for this one.

Gadget

So the question here is....?

I would like to keep the kick tight and punchy around 80hz and get the mids (vocals) to project farther out than the last gig though. Mids are about 7'6" high.

You shouldn't need to change much... but you might want to boost the gain on the mid high amps a bit... that should get the projection out a bit more...

The key here is height and getting the sound on the people and off the reflective surfaces...
Gadget

maddog

From what I've been reading I should leave the compressor off at the DBX when running a full band, would this hold true to my setup or could I benefit any setting it up? I have outboard compressors on the vocals, kick ,and snare, just wondering if theirs any tricks I don't know about.

Also the subharmonic I have found just makes a boomy sound when use the kick trigger, I assume this would be useful when using a kick mic though.

Thanks guys it's getting there and I really like the unit.

Gadget

No don't compress the whole mix.. and I don't like the Sub synth for ANYTHING...

G

Dennis

Subharmonic synth bad

Dennis