Considering a Driverack PA+ but easy question about setup...

jcourier

We are very new to PA's. Purchased a Yamaha MG24 board, two Crown XTi2000's, two SM15V monitors and two S115 mains. We currently have one crown powering the monitors, left and right, and one for the mains left and right.

Would the addition of the PA+ be a benefit to this system? We briefly had a Behringer Feedback destroyer and hated it. The manual was completely non-understandle (for me at least). The dbx equipment seems more automated with setup wizards, etc.

Would you recommend the PA+ for our simple Yamaha system? Or is there another box/system that would be an upgrade to manage two Crowns, two monitors and two mains?

Remember, on any response: you are dealing with a sound and PA neophyte....jc

Dra

While the PA+ will "control" mains and monitors, it does so with some advanced user tricks that have been detailed in other threads. Basically, some functions can't be separated and are common to the mains and monitor mix.
The 260 will manage 2 signals and completely keep them separate. Plus, the GUI control (if you have a laptop) make things wayeasier to use. Download the Driveware in the training area. Also, do the tutorials.
For <$700 it is the way to go.

DRA

PS - You mentioned mains (L&R) and monitors (L&R). Mains must be mono and monitors limited to 1 mix.

Gadget

Pardon me for saying so ... and I am not aiming this at you... but those Yamaha's don't sound very good at all, they are peaky in frequency response ....and thus their gain before feedback is LOUSY... Well.. it's a cheap speaker right? BUT, you get the driverack and measurement mic and set up the speakers properly... and you won't BELIEVE the difference!

As Dra said, it would require 2 driveracks to run stereo AND 2 monitor mixes...
Gadget

Dra

What Gadget is saying is, "With those speakers a Driverack, of some sort is a must."

DRA

Gadget

kind of a "he said, he said" kind of deal...

jcourier

Thanks for the imput. We are using 2 Aux mix for our two guitarists, through one Crown, one left to my monitor and the other aux mix right to the second stage monitor. Whereas, Gadget is saying the main signal is from the whole board on one signal, thus it is mono? Even though the second Crown sends the signal to a left and right main, it's still considered mono?

I know these are braindead easy questions, but I am really new to this and am coming along slowly.

Dra, mentioned cheap speakers. I get it. We do get the feedback, thus the interest in some control with a DBX type box, on the gain from our voices/mics at mid level settings (about 12 o'clock). Sounds like these would seriously improve not only the feedback, but the sound of the speakers?

Are there any products from other companies that do this kind of control, or is DBX the only one. ie, does the price for a 260 have to be $700?...jc

Gadget

For newbies/novices like yourself the Driverack is the only product that offers Auto Eq...(well maybe the Peavey VSX) Yes there are lots of other processors but most are MORE money...The AUto EQ is important for those inexpensive speakers since you can then flatten the response and get better gain before feedback...We didnt say you HAD to get the 260, just that is is the BEST in class...

What we said, Dra and I, is that with one unit you can run a stereo front of house, but the driverack has only 2 channels.. so, if you wanted to do mains AND monitors, you have 2 channels available... if you use one for the monitors, you will only have 1 for the mains... do you see the logic here? You could add another driverack and then have stereo mains and 2 monitor mixes but you can't with only one driverack...with only 2 channels.

So for stereo maind you would need to send the main outs through 1 driverack to the amp and the 2 monitor mixes through the other driverack and the other amp to the monitors...you cant send 2 signals through one channel and then split them after the driverack and have individual control of the 2 monitors... it don't work that way...

G

Dra

Gadget wrote:

Pardon me for saying so ... and I am not aiming this at you... but those Yamaha's don't sound very good at all, they are peaky in frequency response ....and thus their gain before feedback is LOUSY... Well.. it's a cheap speaker right? BUT, you get the driverack and measurement mic and set up the speakers properly... and you won't BELIEVE the difference!

As Dra said, it would require 2 driveracks to run stereo AND 2 monitor mixes...
Gadget

The 260 doesn't HAVE to be $700. You can buy used from Ebay, etc...
In case Gadget wasn't clear...
Driverack (whichever) has 2 channels.
FOH stereo (mains):
Left - 1 ch
Right - 1 ch
Monitors:
Gtr mix 1 - 1 ch
Gtr mix 2 - 1 ch

That's 4 total channels required. You need 4 channels of processing. The Driverack 4800 would do nicely. Yo, G. How much are those? $2000?

J, There are no easy solutions to your problem. At least that you want to hear. A single Driverack (assuming 2 monitor mixes AND FOH (of any kind) will not solve all your problems, but will solve 1/2 of them. Hard decision... make yourself sound good to yourself on stage, or sound good to the audience while stuggling against feedback etc on stage. It's a pickle. :?

We're always here to help.

DRA

jcourier

Thanks guys, I really appreicate it. I learned a lot. This whole subject can be a bit daunting on first approach....jc

jcourier

Another question: We actually have three SM15V monitors. Once I power that with another Crown, is there any reason the Driverack PA + could handle all three monitors? I believe there are two inputs, but six outputs....correct? ie, you don't neccessarily have to always work with an even number of speakers or monitors....do you?

I think our solution in the short run will be one Driverack for the monitors, then a second down the road for the mains. Our problems exist now only with the monitors...

Any thoughts from Gadget or Dra?....jc

Gadget

Yes of course... you could run 6, 12, 24, 124... BUT you would ONLY HAVE 2 SEPARATE MIXES...in other words, lets say you have 6 identical monitors... one on each output...3 of them are on one input and three are on the other... in your case you would have 2 monitors on one mix ( like 2 monitors up front, and one on the other for the drummer for instance...
G

Dra

You still have not detailed your actual needs. Are you running the same "mix" to all your monitors? Or is it one mix with vocal 1, guitar 1, and keys, and a second mix with vocal 2, guitar 2, and click track?
The adding of an amp to use more monitors implies different mixes, but to simply add another monitor on the same mix doesn't require extra amps, at this stage.

DRA

Gadget

:roll: ummm.... errr...ohhh...well...

We are using 2 Aux mix for our two guitarists, through one Crown, one left to my monitor and the other aux mix right to the second stage monitor.

Dra

:oops:
Carry on.

Gadget

No worries... hard to keep track on these long threads...

jcourier

Gadget / Dra - you comments have been great and I have learned a lot. I know this is pathetic,,...but I didn't realize you could run more than one monitor off of one side of a power amp. I believe they call this "parallel", I think of it as "daisychaining" the monitors. Since we have two Crown XTi 2000's, sounds like we have plenty of power.

I am currently running the mains off of one Crown, left and right, and two monitors off the other, left and right. We have a third SM15V sitting that I have wanted to put into play for either our bass or drummer, but I literally thought I needed another Crown to do so. Now I know to run the third parallel off of one of the two monitors.

Question though - when you program the Driverack PA + ....do you tell it, or does it care, that one side of the a monitor mix goes out to two monitors running parallel?

Thanks again for all the feedback. I think I am going to go with one Driverack for the monitors first, then a second down the road for the mains. I think doing so is still significantly cheaper than a 4800, though I know that would be optimal...jc

Gadget

2... XTi 2000's :shock: :shock: you crazy kid those have built in processing! You could get one driverack and do the setup for the monitors on it, and transfer the settings to the amps .... That's exactly what I did with my buddies disco.. I set them up and auto eq'd the speakers with my driverack, then transferred the settings to the Xti AMPS....You are styling...heck get the PX and you'll have the mic and everything... what the PX doesn't have the amps do.. including loads of delay and PEQ's!HUGE bonus!
your golden!
Gadget

Dra

From what Gadget says about the DRPA+, if money was available and I was choosing between the DRPA+ and the PX (with a mic), I'd choose the DRPA+ and buy the mic.

Aren't you glad you mention having XTI's? Changed your whole world. As far as helping you with the amps, Gadget will have to do that. Good luck.

DRA

Gadget

Question though - when you program the Driverack PA + ....do you tell it, or does it care, that one side of the a monitor mix goes out to two monitors running parallel?

As long as the load impedance doesn't exceed 2 ohms stereo...you will be able to put however many monitors you want on each channel and the driverack, or the amps do not care...there is no difference...

In your case the yamaha's are 8 ohms so you could run as many as 4 per channel on the XTi as long as you stay in stereo.
In that case ALL 4 monitors would be on THE SAME MIX...as in Aux 2 make sure that monitors are run on a PRE FADER aux buss...

As Dra said the PA+ has a far superior auto eq algorithm.. and has more capability, and would be a good choice.

G

jcourier

Amazing. I think I am actually getting - but of course, more questions. Just to make sure I am clear: because of the "processing" power of the Crown XTi's, It sounds like I don't need two DRPA+'s (one for mains and one for monitors).

I could theoretically program the mains (EQ them) and then park that on the Crown for the mains. The DRPA+ could then be used "realtime" for the monitors. Remember, I am buying the unit to fight feedback for the monitors. Am I understanding this?

Also - my sense is the DRPA+ does many things, not just EQ and Anti-Feedback. Are all the functions from the unit able to be programmed and tranferred to the Crown's, or just EQ?...jc

Dra

jcourier wrote:

Are all the functions from the unit able to be programmed and tranferred to the Crown's, or just EQ?...jc

Don't get caught up in the terminology. YOU are transferrer. Kind of like transferring a hand written note to a typewriter. You gotta manually do all the "transferring", like the set-up of DRPA+.

I think the processes available in the amps are...
Parametric EQ (not graphic, which is usually neccesary for monitors)
Pass filters (x-over)
Delay
Limiting (?)

These plus the graphic EQ & Feedback section are available on the DR.
I tend to agree with you that I would try the DRPA+ on monitors and see how it goes.

DRA

Gadget

because of the "processing" power of the Crown XTi's, It sounds like I don't need two DRPA+'s (one for mains and one for monitors).

Correct, the XTi would then use the transferred settings for the mains...

because of the "processing" power of the Crown XTi's, It sounds like I don't need two DRPA+'s (one for mains and one for monitors).

Correct...the XTi has all the crossover, limiting, delay, and and peq needed for the mains...( a GEQ for guest BE (board engineers... a fancy word for mixer)


Do you have a laptop? you need to download Band Manager here:
http://hiqnet.harmanpro.com/downloads.php

It will allow you to set up and control the XTi amps different parameters .... and modify them FAR easier, and see what you are doing...

Yes I know this only poses a thousand more questions but you need to get a DR in your ahnds and read the setup onfo in the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING SECTION...
G

jcourier

Now own the Driverack PA+ and have attempted to set it up. We are still a bit clueless on how to use the RTA mic since we are only using the Driverack on the monitors. Our mains are across the room and pointed back towards the stage. Should I put the RTA mic on a mic stand infront of the monitors??

Gadget

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2410

The principle is the same, you don't have as many PEQ's or bi-amp (most likely) but the theory is the same...

Place the mic in the head position aimed at the monitor
use high precision
use the PEQ's for room mode and tweaking, a broad filter @ about 400 hz for the biggest problem 160 and 3k5 are other top candidates
HPF the monitors @ 120-150 hz ( I like 150...)
know your mic types...and monitor positions for instance hyper cardioid mics like the monitors at the 3 and 10 position where unidirectional mics like the monitor at the position the mic cord point to as in the base of the mic stand...

G

jcourier

G - thanks for your response. I still am so new to all this. I played around yesterday trying to use the set up wizard for the monitors, and ended up with feedback - but only when my Mesa Roadster was on a louder distorted channel. I then switched the DR PA+ to the mains and redid the wizard for them. Our mains are across the room and up high pointing back at us, about 25 feet away. Still got feedback, and still ony with the Mesa on a louder distorted channel.

I currently have the monitors directly in front of the mics/mic stands. The mics are EV N/D 767a's and an Audix OM2. Before the DR PA, we had little to no feedback. In using the set up wizard with both the monitors and mains - we can hear a definite improvement in the vocals, but are not getting feedback?

Last - am I crazy: Is there no power buttom on the DR PA+? Am I supposed to plug it in to something like a power amp so they come on at the same time??..jc

Gadget

Your going to have to go through how you do any Auto EQ on the mains... and exactly what your doing with the Meas that is causing feedback...

The DRPA+ has a real time analyzer that will SHOW you where the feedback frequencies are...use it to determine where the problem is and put a PEQ on it...in a pinch the GEQ can help as well..

No power switch... I run a distro/power switch to the amp racks and the FOH racks...

Gadget