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Adding low end welly to a live kick drum.
stakka
Posts: 5
Hi, first post, hope to do it justice.
We have only just picked up the Driverack PX having given up on the reliability (or lack of) of a Behringer DEQ2496 (nice features but steer clear in a live situation IMO). I look forward to giving our feedback on the PX and eventually provide some helpful advice in return.
I am still reading (at a million miles an hour) all of the very comprehensive and helpful info here and feel fairly confident on setting up the usual (Gain structure, EQ, AFS etc etc) ... and I stress I will get round to reading, absorbing and trying out all the advice / topics covered here - but without the luxury of much time and gigs looming we need to jump in and hit the road running somewhere.
I am interested if anyone has any preffered techniques or pointers on getting the best from the very low end of a kick drum. We are a fairly simple set up and want to keep it that way (in the interests of setup and reliability) currently using the Behringer Xenyx 1832FX mixer feeding through the Driverack PX out to a single dB technologies Sub05 Sub and 2 x Mackie SRM 450 V2 for the tops. Only 2 vocal mics and the kick drum mic (Red Audio) are fed in to the system for Indie / Rock style music.
We are not after that 80Hz thump in the chest bass, it is the lower 30 - 60 Hz range we like to enhance to give more of a subtle but deeper and still "felt" sound. Previously we used the parametric on the DEQ to get somewhere (but not quite) where we wanted but with the Sub Synth facility on the driverack I am wondering whether this is worth dabbling with as well.
I am sure it is obviously down to trial and error and what we find sounds best - however we only have one practitice session before the next gig so time is limited when I can get my hands on the gear and it would be very handy to go forearmed with a bit of helpful advice to try out so that I can spend the little time we have practicing playing.
Also would I go too far wrong if I used the SUB12 preset in the PX menu for our Sub 05 unit? They are very similar units, just with the sub 05 being a 15" cone and a slightly lower bottom end frequency.
Thanks in anticipation.
PS - I am the drummer and sole sound engineer (term used loosely) hence please excuse if I am asking something that appears basic to those used to tweaking sounds.
We have only just picked up the Driverack PX having given up on the reliability (or lack of) of a Behringer DEQ2496 (nice features but steer clear in a live situation IMO). I look forward to giving our feedback on the PX and eventually provide some helpful advice in return.
I am still reading (at a million miles an hour) all of the very comprehensive and helpful info here and feel fairly confident on setting up the usual (Gain structure, EQ, AFS etc etc) ... and I stress I will get round to reading, absorbing and trying out all the advice / topics covered here - but without the luxury of much time and gigs looming we need to jump in and hit the road running somewhere.
I am interested if anyone has any preffered techniques or pointers on getting the best from the very low end of a kick drum. We are a fairly simple set up and want to keep it that way (in the interests of setup and reliability) currently using the Behringer Xenyx 1832FX mixer feeding through the Driverack PX out to a single dB technologies Sub05 Sub and 2 x Mackie SRM 450 V2 for the tops. Only 2 vocal mics and the kick drum mic (Red Audio) are fed in to the system for Indie / Rock style music.
We are not after that 80Hz thump in the chest bass, it is the lower 30 - 60 Hz range we like to enhance to give more of a subtle but deeper and still "felt" sound. Previously we used the parametric on the DEQ to get somewhere (but not quite) where we wanted but with the Sub Synth facility on the driverack I am wondering whether this is worth dabbling with as well.
I am sure it is obviously down to trial and error and what we find sounds best - however we only have one practitice session before the next gig so time is limited when I can get my hands on the gear and it would be very handy to go forearmed with a bit of helpful advice to try out so that I can spend the little time we have practicing playing.
Also would I go too far wrong if I used the SUB12 preset in the PX menu for our Sub 05 unit? They are very similar units, just with the sub 05 being a 15" cone and a slightly lower bottom end frequency.
Thanks in anticipation.
PS - I am the drummer and sole sound engineer (term used loosely) hence please excuse if I am asking something that appears basic to those used to tweaking sounds.
0
Comments
That's not a lot of power to reproduce 30-60hz...those frequencies are the MOST power hungry ones..and adding the sub synth might very well cause damage...
The thing is...there are MANY things about the kick drum... is it damped... is there a hole in the front, is it tuned to the lowest point it can and still sound good...what type head, what type shell, what size
All this and what mic/mics, what location of the mic/mics, drum head condition, playing technique... and as you said what tone are you looking for?
As I recall the primary frequency of the kick is about 300-350hz, and the first lower harmonic is around 80hz...the lower (and upper) harmonics are also lower in VOLUME (sound pressure). You have 2 parametric bands in the lo outs of the PX set one up @ about 80 hz and start with a Q of about 1.0 (pretty broad) and a cut of about 3db this should help tame the 80hz peak. (we'll fine tune this later) this should help cut out the 80hz peak...next set up another peq @ about 45hz, set a Q of about 1.5 and start with a 3db boost. this should help get the lower frequencies coming out, again fine tune these later...
On the channel EQ strip the kick is on...set the mid sweep @ about 200hz and cut it fully....move the center frequency back and forth till you get the majority of the fundamental frequency cut out of the kick sound, then us the gain control to set how MUCH of this cut you want, now do the same for the peq's on the low outs of the PX...if you do decide to use the sub harm. start with a VERY little bit... cut the 24-35hz completely and start @ 50% on the 36-56 hz and start very low gain and move upward...I personally DO NOT LIKE IT!
Add batter head click with 2500-3Khz boost as desired...
Depending on your answers to the sub questions will determine the xover frequency...
Gadget
Glad the holidays are over! BAH HUMBUG! :roll: just a damn commercial ploy to get us to spend lots of money... :evil: Also gives the cops a reason to ramp up the idiocy...Been below zero for a high here for the last few weeks...SUCKS! Geez I sound like a real curmudgeon don't I? At least the snow came so we can snowmobile and ski (if it ever warms up!) Should get some relief starting this W/E I guess...We'll see...and you?
A level 3 sex offender moved in a block and half away and I have 2 teenage girls :twisted: he WILL be afraid...VERY afraid of me... I guarantee you that, or leave here feet first
Other than that just waitin for 2012...
G
Alas no soundman Dr. J, until we hit the bigtime
We are usually only smaller venues - pubs and small halls for approx 50 people so the bass / guitars are through stage amps. If we start getting larger venues then we can always invest in more / bigger subs etc. but in our initial tests the single sub looked to have more than enough guts to get the kick drum across the typical rooms we play in and a moderate setting was enough to be heard / felt at the back, so hopefully the power will be there to work the power hungry frequencies we want effectively - but I understand what Gadget is saying on that front. In short though we are only really just in to the territory where we need to re-inforce the kick drum and sometimes we may not need to reinforce it as such but it would be good to be able to enhance the sound even if we do not need any extra volume.
To answer gadget more specifically I have inserted notes in to his post below ... hope this helps.
Ok, so you have a single powered 15" sub with 400 watts... that has a 100 hz LPF, and a max spl of 129 db spl. Right? I HATE products that don't give you the information.... like a frequency plot and an online manual that I can view... no pictures of the amp section and the "data sheet" is conveniently "unavailable". So your gonna have to help out here... is there a defeat switch for the Lopass? is there a limiter indicator?...jeez...
Yep - DbT's website ain't that helpful. Brief 05 details on here http://www.dbtechnologies.com/images/pr ... OOFER2.pdf There is a limiter indicator led but do not recall seeing a defeat switch (will be able to check soon though). As for frequency plot I will see if the local dealer can provide - but don't hold your breath !!
That's not a lot of power to reproduce 30-60hz...those frequencies are the MOST power hungry ones..and adding the sub synth might very well cause damage...
Understood - but we do not usually need much volume - and the sub is dedicated to the kick drum, I'm happy to experiment with care if you think the synth is worth adding in to the picture.
The thing is...there are MANY things about the kick drum... is it damped... is there a hole in the front, is it tuned to the lowest point it can and still sound good...what type head, what type shell, what size
It is a New Mapex Orion 22 x 18 with original Remo weatherking Powerstroke heads (so hopefully we are not trying to polish a turd here!) - 6" port on front. Still experimenting with internal dampening (also considering the new "kickport" bass drum enhancer port but awaiting feedback in the meantime before purchasing). But a decent drum that sounds good when nice and loose.
All this and what mic/mics, what location of the mic/mics, drum head condition, playing technique... and as you said what tone are you looking for?
Single Red 5 Audio RVD1 kick drum mic - a low cost but well favoured value mic over here if on a budget. No real instilled science in placement yet - still playing with approx 1" away to just in to port, either face on or slightly angled. Every thing is a few months old and top condition. Standard Indie Rock music - no subtle playing tecnique - just steady 4 beat. Sorry to inflict Oasis on to you but this sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fLR3FRaFsQ is somewhere close. There is a bit of a click to it which I am not specifically after but (on my sound system here anyway) the feel "sounds like" there is a bit more below that just the normal 80 Hz thump you get - we want it heard / felt on a more lower subtle level but not to the too synthesised Rave / Sub Bass extreme nor have it too in your chest (80 Hz ish)
As I recall the primary frequency of the kick is about 300-350hz, and the first lower harmonic is around 80hz...the lower (and upper) harmonics are also lower in VOLUME (sound pressure). You have 2 parametric bands in the lo outs of the PX set one up @ about 80 hz and start with a Q of about 1.0 (pretty broad) and a cut of about 3db this should help tame the 80hz peak. (we'll fine tune this later) this should help cut out the 80hz peak...next set up another peq @ about 45hz, set a Q of about 1.5 and start with a 3db boost. this should help get the lower frequencies coming out, again fine tune these later...
On the channel EQ strip the kick is on...set the mid sweep @ about 200hz and cut it fully....move the center frequency back and forth till you get the majority of the fundamental frequency cut out of the kick sound, then us the gain control to set how MUCH of this cut you want, now do the same for the peq's on the low outs of the PX...if you do decide to use the sub harm. start with a VERY little bit... cut the 24-35hz completely and start @ 50% on the 36-56 hz and start very low gain and move upward... Perfect - I look forward to giving this a go.
I personally DO NOT LIKE IT! Hopefully we are on the same level - I want a quality, heard low thump but it needs to sound somewhat authentic / acoustic as opposed to over produced / rave festival like... if that makes sense :?
Add batter head click with 2500-3Khz boost as desired...
Depending on your answers to the sub questions will determine the xover frequency...
Gadget
Again... thank you.
You have a problem with reeded instraments?
DRA
The nature of a bandpass box such as the 05 is that high frequencies are naturally attenuated, and no real intelligible sound should be heard from it. ( by that I mean NO vocal definition should be heard even if it was in the subs... but vocals in the sub isn't good anyway...engage the LPF per channel on the vocal channels and I generally drop the low shelf ( low frequency channel control) on each vocal so that there isn't a lot of low end vocals to muddie the mix). If you allow the kick to be ONLY in the sub ( and I get that you only want kick , no guitar or bass in the sub) but you need some of the other kick frequencies in the PA or it will sound muddy and nasally...
I understand that the bass guitar is able to carry the room, that is because bass is omnidirectional in nature, but the guitars are very directional, and so if you don't add a bit of them into the mix and they are say stage left and right, the people on stage left are deprived of the guitar on stage right, (and vise versa) AND the sound of the guitars will be naturally heard in the vocal mics anyway (they pick up anything in their proximity), and the difference in arrival times at the ears of the listeners will cause a noticeable timelag which will make the guitars sound strange.. as little as .7 ms is noticeable and that is a distance of around 5-6 feet!
Set the frequency selector on the sub to 120 hz and use the Driverack to set the crossover point for the system... I would suggest 100hz LR24 for the transition...this will help keep the vocals and low mids more intelligible and keep the nasally sound out of the subs...it's a good starting point, then you can try raising and lowering that point and see where you end up.
The key here is to get the system flat in frequency response, this will do more to help your sound than anything. your going to find when you do that things will jump out more in the mix...
Gadget
Ah... got me again didn't you... that's what I get for not proofreading my posts.. and posting when I'm beat...and no I don't have and problem with reed "Instrument"....
perhaps your "spelling checker" is on the fritz?
That sounds to me like a distance of less than 1 foot...perhaps 7 ms would be a distance of 5-6 feet.
Dennis
Have a great day !
BTW - For a moment I actually thought the Sax Offender was intentional and a somewhat funny joke about a Kenny G wannabe moving in and leaving his windows open during practice sessions.
Much like theater and theatre... I was using the "European" old english.
DRA (Hoping the Tide rolls)
Google search:
Did you mean: instrument
remember... YOU opened this can of worms..
Dennis... absolutely...8ms/foot...I even posted that in the FAQ section...
hey did you get my return PM?
G