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215 & 266XL. How do I connect them?

dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
edited January 2010 in dbx Archive General Discussion
I am an audio novice at best and I have been given a project to assemble a PA system with the following components.

2 Shure wireless microphones
DBX 215 EQ
DBX 266XL Compressor
2 70v amp

I'm assuming that I will go from the mic to the compressor and then to the eq. Is that correct? What would be the purpose of the compressor in a system like this? Feedback suppression maybe?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Andy

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Well my friend you need a mixer for the mics...I mean you could run a LINE level signal into the 266... but not a mic level signal. Compression can CAUSE feedback....70 volt amps are for use with speakers with 70volt transformers...like ceiling speakers in banquet rooms and are generally only for announcement and background music. Compression has NO BUSINESS in this type system...

    So much much more info is needed about what the system comprises... ALL the info please!
    Gadget
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    The amp is a TOA mixer/amp it is driving EV 70v ceiling speakers. There will also be presentation audio for computer, dvd, CD, etc.. Would the compressor be better used there or should I leave it out all together?

    Let me know if you need any other specifics.

    Thanks for your help.

    Andy
    Gadget wrote:
    Well my friend you need a mixer for the mics...I mean you could run a LINE level signal into the 266... but not a mic level signal. Compression can CAUSE feedback....70 volt amps are for use with speakers with 70volt transformers...like ceiling speakers in banquet rooms and are generally only for announcement and background music. Compression has NO BUSINESS in this type system...

    So much much more info is needed about what the system comprises... ALL the info please!
    Gadget
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    I guess I must be dense because I don't understand... fuly...
    There will also be presentation audio for computer, dvd, CD, etc../quote]
    Does that mean that this is for presentation audio.. as in spoken word with some playback using computer, DVD, and or CD audio? I see that the mixer is the TOA...

    [quoteWould the compressor be better used there or should I leave it out all together?
    Compression for this purpose (unless I got it wrong) is not a good idea...the problem is that with compression it HUNTS for signal in quiet passages... and squashes signals that pass the set threshold... this can cause feedback.. a limiter would give you the ability to hold audio to a given threshold. If the system was perfectly tuned (not likely in ceiling speaker systems...)

    As for the rest of the program... does the TOA have a line out/power amp in port? See... if you had included the model # of the TOA I could have looked it up (perhaps) myself...

    ALL the info...
    podium?
    what mic capsule? please don't say LAV..
    the more specifics you give the better we can do for you... no detail is too small...

    Gadget
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    The systems will be used in a large classroom. CD, DVD, computer and Polycom return will use a Samson Servo 120 amplifier through a pair of JBL Control 28 speakers. Switching and output level of these will be through a Crestron CEN-RGBHV8x8 matrix switcher and Crestron C2N-VEQ4
    http://www.samsontech.com/products/prod ... &brandID=2
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 79&id=1570
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 77&id=1161

    The microphones as designed were to use the following -
    Shure SLX 14/85
    Shure SLX 24/SM58
    dbx 215 EQ
    dbx 266XL
    Qty 3 TOA A-712 (Room can be divided into 3 sections)
    Qty 2 RDL ST-DA3 (3 output audio DA to distribute mics to the 3 TOA amps)
    http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=38
    http://toaelectronics.com/amp0010.asp
    http://toaelectronics.com/images/img_am ... ar_web.jpg
    The TOA amp does have record out and preamp out.
    The microphone levels will be set manually and the end user will not have access to the controls.

    I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any other details.
    Gadget wrote:
    I guess I must be dense because I don't understand... fuly...
    There will also be presentation audio for computer, dvd, CD, etc../quote]
    Does that mean that this is for presentation audio.. as in spoken word with some playback using computer, DVD, and or CD audio? I see that the mixer is the TOA...

    [quoteWould the compressor be better used there or should I leave it out all together?
    Compression for this purpose (unless I got it wrong) is not a good idea...the problem is that with compression it HUNTS for signal in quiet passages... and squashes signals that pass the set threshold... this can cause feedback.. a limiter would give you the ability to hold audio to a given threshold. If the system was perfectly tuned (not likely in ceiling speaker systems...)

    As for the rest of the program... does the TOA have a line out/power amp in port? See... if you had included the model # of the TOA I could have looked it up (perhaps) myself...

    ALL the info...
    podium?
    what mic capsule? please don't say LAV..
    the more specifics you give the better we can do for you... no detail is too small...

    Gadget
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    I forgot to mention that the Polycom is using it's own proprietary microphones. The Shure microphones will not be passed to the Polycom.
    dr_optical wrote:
    The systems will be used in a large classroom. CD, DVD, computer and Polycom return will use a Samson Servo 120 amplifier through a pair of JBL Control 28 speakers. Switching and output level of these will be through a Crestron CEN-RGBHV8x8 matrix switcher and Crestron C2N-VEQ4
    http://www.samsontech.com/products/prod ... &brandID=2
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 79&id=1570
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 77&id=1161

    The microphones as designed were to use the following -
    Shure SLX 14/85
    Shure SLX 24/SM58
    dbx 215 EQ
    dbx 266XL
    Qty 3 TOA A-712 (Room can be divided into 3 sections)
    Qty 2 RDL ST-DA3 (3 output audio DA to distribute mics to the 3 TOA amps)
    http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=38
    http://toaelectronics.com/amp0010.asp
    http://toaelectronics.com/images/img_am ... ar_web.jpg
    The TOA amp does have record out and preamp out.
    The microphone levels will be set manually and the end user will not have access to the controls.

    I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any other details./quote]
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Wow... there's quite a difference between this:
    I am an audio novice at best and I have been given a project to assemble a PA system with the following components.

    2 Shure wireless microphones
    DBX 215 EQ
    DBX 266XL Compressor
    2 70v amp

    and this:
    The systems will be used in a large classroom. CD, DVD, computer and Polycom return will use a Samson Servo 120 amplifier through a pair of JBL Control 28 speakers. Switching and output level of these will be through a Crestron CEN-RGBHV8x8 matrix switcher and Crestron C2N-VEQ4
    http://www.samsontech.com/products/prod ... &brandID=2
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 79&id=1570
    http://www.crestron.com/products/show_p ... 77&id=1161

    The microphones as designed were to use the following -
    Shure SLX 14/85
    Shure SLX 24/SM58
    dbx 215 EQ
    dbx 266XL
    Qty 3 TOA A-712 (Room can be divided into 3 sections)
    Qty 2 RDL ST-DA3 (3 output audio DA to distribute mics to the 3 TOA amps)
    http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=38
    http://toaelectronics.com/amp0010.asp
    http://toaelectronics.com/images/img_am ... ar_web.jpg
    The TOA amp does have record out and preamp out.
    The microphone levels will be set manually and the end user will not have access to the controls.

    So forgive me as I try and grasp the concept here... the later is already in place and the former they want incorporated into the system?

    So we have already discussed the fact that compression and feedback are synonymous, add a LAV mic to the equation and the potential becomes pretty much a given...the addition of a carpet bomber (15 band GEQ) to the equation will do little to eliminate the potential. The Crestron HAS built in dsp which has EQ ... so are we stacking EQ's here as well, or are we NOT using the dsp onboard the system?

    I must admit there are more questions here than answers...I'm afraid I still don't see a benefit in adding the EQ or compressor...and what does the original post with it's 6 items have to do now that we know that we have a much more complex system here...I mean as an admitted novice you might want to consult with someone with more knowledge on this type of system... someone with experience?

    Lav mics make audio technicians lives hell on earth to begin with...the system needs to be tuned to the nuts and then some serious eq is needed for the lav itself...here your exacerbating this by covering a given space with both ceiling speakers and JBL control boxes which further complicates the issues here. I don't envy you the task at hand...Further, this is a hands on ( you really need to be able to touch and see and hear the concept in place in order to make sense of all this.. the room acoustics (most likely crappy to begin with) system implementation...(how it's deployed and hooked up) I don't know... maybe some pictures and a system block diagram would help us to see whats happening here...

    Dennis? Dra? you following this at all?

    G
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    I recommend going to PSW. They have forums dedicated to installations and A/V. You might try the eq on the Lav solely if the signal from it can be bumped up to line level. Compression can be useful IF... You know what the point of feedback is (say +6) and set a ceiling, then set the added gain to not exceed that point. Kind of like the Auti Gain Control on the 260, keeping the volume " in a window". Hard to do though.

    DRA
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Gadget wrote:
    Dennis? Dra? you following this at all? G
    No...I got brain lock as soon as I saw "Crestron" in the mix.

    +1 for pictures and a diagram.

    Dennis
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    Sorry no pictures and it is a new install. The Crestron will control the source devices only (CD, DVD, etc.) so the dbx was intended for the mics only. This was a "salesman designed" system. All I can ask is to be able to make the best use of what I have. Tell me how how to put it together and I'll make it work.

    Thank you for the help. It is much appreciated. Next time I'll come here before the components are purchased.

    Andy
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Any chance of a block diagram here... were just having a hard time picturing how this is all supposed to fit together without one central mix location... a router isn't really going to do it, and with 3? TOA's and an additional amp... and ceiling speakers and wall mounts...without some sort of idea how the salesman pictured all this fitting together is just to much of a stretch...even a hand drawn schematic of the room and speaker positions and a block diagram of the system as he pictured it...?

    You can get an account (free) @ photobucket, and then post a picture/drawing whatever there or email it directly to me @ tzone42@paulbunyan.net and I can post it ...but short of that I don't see this all coming together as a system...
    G
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    I've emailed a pdf of the original intent for the system. Let me know what you think.

    Again, I very much appreciate your help.
    Gadget wrote:
    Any chance of a block diagram here... were just having a hard time picturing how this is all supposed to fit together without one central mix location... a router isn't really going to do it, and with 3? TOA's and an additional amp... and ceiling speakers and wall mounts...without some sort of idea how the salesman pictured all this fitting together is just to much of a stretch...even a hand drawn schematic of the room and speaker positions and a block diagram of the system as he pictured it...?

    You can get an account (free) @ photobucket, and then post a picture/drawing whatever there or email it directly to me @ tzone42@paulbunyan.net and I can post it ...but short of that I don't see this all coming together as a system...
    G
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    So then let me get this strait... there are two separate systems here... the laptops, cd,dvd,PC all hook up tom the 8x8 switcher which goes into the Crestron vol mod, and then to the Sampson amp and out to the JBL Control speakers...

    The other system is the 2 wireless mics, they envision going through the dbx266 then the dbx215, then into 2, 1x3 switchers (for the three separate rooms) and then into the three TOA mixer amps and out to the ceiling mounted EV speakers...


    Well, there is no doubt HOW they envision the thing hooked up...any chance of trading the 215 and 266 in on a driverack? the PX should work fine here... about the same money ... AND it will make your life SOOOO much easier..
    FYI the driverack PX has
    the 266xl comps
    dual 28 band GEQ's
    10 bands of PEQ's
    auto eq
    auto feedback suppression
    auto gain control
    full set of crossovers and filters
    2 ins and 4 outs...
    Measurement mic included...

    This way you could use the auto eq to set the ceiling speakers up as flat as possible, then use the PEQ's to tune one channels outputs specifically for the LAV mic. set up the other for the handheld, then auto feedback suppressor the room with 6 fixed and six roaming filters.. this way you would actually have a prayer of pulling this off... The properly tuned speakers will help to maximize gain before feedback, the auto feedback suppression will help keep spurrious feedback in check as the LAV moves about the room..s... I can't see the 215 and 266 being able to accomplish this with any degree of consistency..

    Get the driverack become a hero...

    That's the way I see it... gentlemen?

    G
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Gadget, did you receive a PDF and not share it???
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Trying Dennis... my cheap ass version of Adobe won't let me convert the doc so I'm still working on that...
    G
  • dr_opticaldr_optical Posts: 15
    I'm studying here and trying to see what I can do with what I already have. Do I understand correctly that the dbx 215 and the dbx 266XL both require line level inputs of more than 21db and my Shure SLX4 receiver using the HI-Z out is only -2db? So the only way I can even start would be to add a mic to line converter? http://shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Wire ... X4_content

    A
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Looks like it might be pretty difficult to get enough level to make the compressor work...no input volume control to work with either...

    Well, all you can do is hook it up and try... but usually you can bring new equipment back and trade it in for what you need... and believe me.. this isn't going to be a very user friendly system the way it's set up ...You will have an awful time with the LAV mic..

    I suppose you could swap the comp and the EQ and use the EQ to get more signal level... but it's not the way I'd do it...Get the right stuff and do it right the first time..your never going to be sorry..
    Lakeside.jpg
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Gadget wrote:
    Trying Dennis... my cheap ass version of Adobe won't let me convert the doc so I'm still working on that...
    G
    I use a free program called "Cute PDF Writer"
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Trade in the comp for a small audio mixer

    Dennis
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Another thing... the Driverack has a switch on the back that will allow it to take +4 OR -10 dbv signals...

    You know it's tragic when salesmen that have no idea what they are doing sell a bill of goods to unsuspecting end users... in this case a dbx Zonepro 1260 would have done everything needed for this system ... all in one rack space. 12 inputs and 6 outputs and each room could have had it's own volume control...in the form of a ZC controller...the ceiling speakers in each room could have been controlled by the 1260, the JBL control could have been run off 2 outputs if necessary, and STILL had 1 output left...the system would then be password controlled with multi level security access and controlled by a laptop when changes were needed... even wifi could have been implemented so that a wireless tablet could have been used to walk the room and tune as you go...probably would have saved a LOT of money as well...three mixer amps? strange... very strange...
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Gadget wrote:
    You know it's tragic when salesmen that have no idea what they are doing sell a bill of goods to unsuspecting end users... in this case a dbx Zonepro 1260 would have done everything needed for this system ... all in one rack space. 12 inputs and 6 outputs and each room could have had it's own volume control...in the form of a ZC controller...the ceiling speakers in each room could have been controlled by the 1260, the JBL control could have been run off 2 outputs if necessary, and STILL had 1 output left...the system would then be password controlled with multi level security access and controlled by a laptop when changes were needed... even wifi could have been implemented so that a wireless tablet could have been used to walk the room and tune as you go...probably would have saved a LOT of money as well...three mixer amps? strange... very strange...

    Somebody had a bug up their butt about controlling all of this with Crestron. I don't know if ZonePro is compatible but I think the SC series is. What you have laid out above is logical and is how I would do it but an AV installer/salesman is going to lean toward Crestron or similar because it is standard for their market. Arguing with them is an uphill battle.

    Dennis
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