New PA+ user

theriffmeister

Hi all, I have just ordered the PA+ and RTA mic for our rehearsal room. Should arrive sometime midweek so I just wanted to run past you the idea I think I have in my head!
Desk: Yamaha O3d > Dbx Driverack+>
Cabs 4 x RCF Espace 600s . (I have taken the passive x-overs out of the cabs and hard wired new 3 way seperates)
1 x Behringer EPX3000 for bass (2ohms 1500w per side)
1 X Behringer EP1500 for mids (4ohms 450w per side)
1 x Crown XLS202 for horns(4ohms 200w per side)
The individual drivers in the cabs are bass:4 x 8ohm RCF L15 542K (per side) mids: 2 8ohm L10 750yk (per side) horns: 2x 8 ohm N481k(per side)

I'm thinking 2x6 set up with a x-over at around 180hz and 2khz?
The rehearsal room size is 27ft long and 17ft wide


Any thoughts/ideas of set up would be welcomed as I don't have the PA+ to play with yet and would like a rough idea before I start! Cheers, Mikey.

Gadget

Hi
Looks like as good a starting point as any... does RCF provide any info on those speakers? what is the 3dB down point of the cab (for HPF purposes to protect the woofers)

The thing is, it's very easy to set up and test multiple scenarios to find what works best...be prepared to try reverse phase for the tweeter to see which sounds best (if you have trouble eqing the hf try it.. sometimes the crossover topology causes delays enough in the crossover that the hf ends up enough out of phase to warrant the reverse)

I won't lie to you getting a three way setup with a single cab ... without extensive experience and more sophisticated measurement equipment and skills.. isn't going top be easy...but the tools are there and with a little patience and some more reading (so you know what your up against) you should be able to end up with a good sounding box...
make sure to read the "start here" and see the FAQ section for a plethora of info on the driverack.
Gadget

Dennis

Go to this link and select ESPACE 600 for RCF specs:

http://www.audio-workshop.co.uk/RCF_Archive_E.html

Notice the original xo points are 600 and 3000

Dennis

Gadget

OOOOH ya.. Thanks Dennis, didn't have time to look those up this morning...I would definately start with those numbers...
I'd also set a minimum 40hz BW 18 HPF
G

Dennis

Unfortunately, they don't list specs on individual components. They do list a model for each component and there might be some info on the RCF website but I am not that ambitious today.

Dennis

theriffmeister

Sorry for the long delay in posting, mrs went into labour 2 months early so all "normal" life plans went on hold! Anyway PA+ arrived, just waiting for a little bit of free time to get set up. Here is the speaker info I found for the RCF espace 600s I have:
L 15/542 - K: Freq response 45 - 2500, Sensitivity (dB 1w/1m) 98, Fs(hz) 45
L 10/750 - YK: Freq response 70 - 5000, Sensistivity 101, Fs 70
N 481 - K +H2009 horn: Freq response 500-20000, Sensistivity 104, minimum cut of freq 1000

What's your thoughts on x-over points now HPF-LPF etc...

cheers

Gadget

As Dennis said the Xover points that Community use are ...600 and 3000 hz.. I'd start with an LR24 filter type nd as I said use a BW18 @ 40-45 hz as an HPF
G

Dennis

Gadget wrote:

the Xover points that Community use are ...600 and 3000 hz..

I thought we were talking RCF...

Gadget

oops...
Ya what he said...

theriffmeister

600 for a low end xover point? Thats one of the reasons i ripped out the internal passive xovers out of the boxes!!

Dennis

600 Hz is a lower mid xo point. When you add an 18" sub and crossover at 100 Hz, that will be your low xo point.

Dennis

Gadget

If your using those fullrange ...you want each component/components to reproduce what they can do best, and leave the rest to the other ones, It's possible to get the horn to go down to 500 hz, but thats not a good number because the horn would not last long doing that frequency...It's further hard to beat the manufacturers recommendations in these since they have taken time and effort to get as much as they can with each design, and their testing development budget is FAR more than ours..

Now that said, we can impliment better, more aggressive crossover types, and slopes to smooth the transitions in the crossover region and then use the tools available in the driverack to further align and smooth the response...

so the crossovers then would be
40hz BW18 HPF and 300 hz LR24 for the transition from the 15" speakers to the 8"
300hz LR24 to 3000hz LR24 for the 8"
and 3000 hz LR24 to out for the horn.
G

theriffmeister

Ok, just got rig hooked up. Tried first off with your suggested xover points, I felt there was too much trash in the 15's so lowered it to 200hz, the mids are 10's not 8's so coming in at 200hz I thought was ok, and sounded tight also!

The one problem I seem to have(or two if you look at it that way) is the custom amp sensitivity, with me having to use a custom setting for bass and mid amp(not in the list) I can't seem to move the DRPA+ setting off 50% for these? The mid amp is set to flat out and the bass amp is around 80%, am I missing something?

Must admit the rig sounds killer with some ozrics!

Gadget

I can't seem to move the DRPA+ setting off 50% for these? The mid amp is set to flat out and the bass amp is around 80%, am I missing something?

First off I don't get what you mean by you can't move the DRPA+ settings off 50%... But if you look at the power available

1 X Behringer EP1500 for mids (4ohms 450w per side)

thats 450 watts for the 10"

[quote1 x Behringer EPX3000 for bass (2ohms 1500w per side)][/quote]

That's 750 watts X2 (AND a 3db free gain for proximity) so think 1800 watts on the LF and 450 on the single 10".. and your wondering why the mid is "underwhelming" ...one single 10" (against 2 15" in close proximity?)and you just lowered the HPF for that midrange to rob even MORE power from the mid.. well I don't wonder why myself...
:roll:
G

theriffmeister

Why are you assuming the mid is underwhelming? The rig sounds excellent as I said!(thanks for the tips so far) The problem is when setting "CUSTOM" in the amp settings there is no option to match the knob on the GUI to turn it up to 100% to match what the actual amp is doing, and same with "CUSTOM" on the bass amp selection to set it at 80% like the amp, as I said they are just on 50% on the GUI of the DRPA+, so therfore not set the same as the amps. There is the option to move the % of gain structure if you choose an amp from the menu list? As GAIN STRUCTURE seems to be the key round here I was wondering how to set it to match!

Gadget

Those are only "suggested" settings, your fine throwing that out the window and using the gain structure method...If you wanted to use the amp sensitivity method you would need to vary the DRPA gain for the outputs using the crossover gain controls.
Gadget

theriffmeister

Ok, many thanks for your input. Currently 0.0db on bass, +6.5db mid and -6.5db on highs from crossover outputs. This is probably because the back wall is only 2.5metres away from the cabs!

Must admit the DRPA+ was very straight forward to set up, quick and very good results from the unit. 2X6way was the only thing to blag me at first, shouldn't it read 2X3way!?

Dra

2x6 = stereo (2) in and 3 way stereo (6) out.
2x2 = stereo (2) in and stereo (2) full range out.
2x3 = stereo (2) in and stereo (2) full range out PLUS mono (1) sub. 2+1=3
2x4 = stereo (2) in and stereo (2) hi's & stereo (2) lo's out. 2+2=4
2x5 = stereo (2) in and stereo (2) hi's & stereo (2) mid's out PLUS mono (1) sub. 2+2+1=5

DRA

Gadget

No, A 2x3 three means stereo hi outs with mono low outs (specifically left mono out) 2x6 would be a stereo three way setup ...be it stereo tops and subs or in your case a tri-amp stereo setup.
G
ya.. what he said..

Dra

I copied and pasted... then forgot to edit. But on the other hand.... it CAN be full range if you adjust it to be. 8)

DRA

theriffmeister

just thought I'd drop a photo in of the rehearsal rig set up. decided to add an 18" scoop per side and have one pair of the rcf's as side fills!


no prizes for the first to spot the rta mic!!

Gadget

Nice!
That's some practice space... sure you have enough rig for the room...


Here's my practice space...

complete with the remains of a new years eve party...
All we use are 2 GASP1202's

and a single 125 liter DIY sub...
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/resources.aspx
With the 2, T1202's aimed right at us with absolutely no feedback issues (and were LOUD)...

Thanks for sharing.
G

theriffmeister

I guess you only run vox mics through the rig? Can't see anything else mic'ed or di'ed? No wonder there's no feedback issues!
Here's a few more pics because I don't have a fish eye lense for the camera!



Anybody any questions on the placement of the rta mic?

Gadget

Yes Everything is Mic'ed, Guitars and bass is DI, kick drum only on drums...the driverack, and the tops have the system so tight that the vocals cut through nicely.

That's an older photo, pre DRPA+ which made an impressive difference in the sound and ease of setup.

Cool lighting effects!
G