DRPX Mono Auto Level issue
jsparhwk
Posts: 2
going through the System Setup wizard for the 6th time.. aghh
1.input select - Mono
2.main speaker select Mackie SRM450
3.Subs - None (not running through PX, on an aux)
4.Main levels - 50% (makies set to 50% or 12 o clock default setting)
loaded preset
5.rta mic connected and input button pressed
6. pink level set to -8db (registered 95 db on my spl meter)
(normal volume for venue is normally measured to be this volume or a little hotter)
7. runs pink noise, continually asks me to turn up volume on right speaker, first to 75%
then to 90%, then asks me to check inputs.
I DO NOT have anything connected to the right input or output of the PX
I thought it would understand this as I selected a mono setup.
my Setup:
Allen and Heath MixWizard 16:2
stereo outputs of mixer combined with a Y
cable to left (mono) side of PX
(previously was in 1 channel of a DBX 2231)
(it has worked ok this way for years)
left output to mackie, have three SRM450's daisy chained
to cover greater than the semicircle of a room.
I have moved the measurement mic included with the PX around the room
and still get the same result / message, ie: I would think if it was an issue with the actual
speaker vol when I moved the measurement mic to the far right side I would think it would
ask me to turn up the left speaker.
so far the setup is much more frustrating than I anticipated,
any assistance you can give is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jonathan
1.input select - Mono
2.main speaker select Mackie SRM450
3.Subs - None (not running through PX, on an aux)
4.Main levels - 50% (makies set to 50% or 12 o clock default setting)
loaded preset
5.rta mic connected and input button pressed
6. pink level set to -8db (registered 95 db on my spl meter)
(normal volume for venue is normally measured to be this volume or a little hotter)
7. runs pink noise, continually asks me to turn up volume on right speaker, first to 75%
then to 90%, then asks me to check inputs.
I DO NOT have anything connected to the right input or output of the PX
I thought it would understand this as I selected a mono setup.
my Setup:
Allen and Heath MixWizard 16:2
stereo outputs of mixer combined with a Y
cable to left (mono) side of PX
(previously was in 1 channel of a DBX 2231)
(it has worked ok this way for years)
left output to mackie, have three SRM450's daisy chained
to cover greater than the semicircle of a room.
I have moved the measurement mic included with the PX around the room
and still get the same result / message, ie: I would think if it was an issue with the actual
speaker vol when I moved the measurement mic to the far right side I would think it would
ask me to turn up the left speaker.
so far the setup is much more frustrating than I anticipated,
any assistance you can give is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jonathan
0
Comments
Therefore, select stereo/stereo this is weird I know but if you set up using a stereo eq then a mono setup your asking for a dual mono setup and it will want to do the left side then the right.
The DRPA will also not let you over drive the RTA but it's a good idea to set up presets for the different levels you might run as the sound of the speakers changes the harder you drive them... that is to say, the speaker equalization will be different for a 99dB sound pressure level, and 115dB.
Have you read the "start here" threads and perused the FAQ section at the beginning of this forum?
Gadget
We often play in small location where I can use only one SRM450. How do I've to set up the PX (and Mixer) to get the real Mono signal?
Thanks!
Gadget
Thanks for providing the forum. I've been reading for about a day (on and off) and its been interesting.
I specifically have a question about this issue - using the Wizards with the PX in a Mono (single speaker) setup. Not to be confused with a mono - dual speaker setup.
Gadget - Jonathon's original post talks about a PX, but your reply mentions a DRPA. Can I assume thats just a typo? Then again - it doesn't quite make sense as PX doesn't seem to allow DUAL MONO (confirmed in yet another thread).
Basically what i've read in this thread and in others is that the PX cannot do a single-speaker setup.. Sure you can pipe through mono signal to two speakers, but the wizards and presets are hardwired to expect L/R speakers thru the software. If this is correct, it would explain why I and others are getting the "cant find RIGHT or LEFT speaker" message, and can't continue with the setup wizard.
So, to my question, and assuming all above is factual (pls correct me if i'm wrong). If we can't "fool" the software into allowing a single-speaker setup, how to "fool" the auto-EQ wizard using the pinking mic into getting past this L/R conundrum, so it can move forward to the other parts of the setup ????
Or - do we simply do everything manually?
Appreciate all feedback.
Dergy
running :
1 x Peavey PROSUB 15" (powered subwoofer)
1 x Peavey PR12P 12" (powered main)
1 x dbx DriveRack PX v1
1 x Behringer 12ch Mixer.
PostScript Question 1 : The dbx has a preset for a PR15P, which I am avoiding using as it will have different characteristics to a 12" speaker. Comments anyone?
PostScript Question 2 : The PR12P and PR15P are bi-amped, and I'm led to believe that the PX will not cater for driver delay. Begs the question - why cater for the PR15P in a preset, when perhaps the DRPA should be used?
1 - The characteristics should not affect anything except maybe the x-over points, which you can change. The amps are probably close enough, in nature, to use the preset.
2 - Most powered speakers are bi-amped and that doesn't affect the PX at all. All the delay is taken care of in the speaker itself.
DRA
I start the wizard, tell it truthfully that I am running Mono input. When I go through the RTA pinking, the Wizard keeps telling me to turn down the left channel (or turn up the right). It never gets through the procedure.
I run into the same problem if I say "Stereo" inputs.
What steps can I follow to get through the DRPX setup wizard correctly, or to pink this system. I need to do it at different venues, so hopefully the process is straightforward.
Thanks in advance for your help.
I think what you are running into is the "Not finished" syndrome..and if so you should go to the FAQ section and brush up on Auto EQ protocol...
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1330
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2346
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=949
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=953
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=960
so check those out and see what you think.
gadget
Do the left then trade plugins to the right. (same input cord and same output cord, just moved).
That way you have 2 times the pain.
DRA
But if your getting the "Not finished" message, either there are more than 4 bands of equalization either fully cut or fully boosted, and ir wants you to do something to fix that before it will sign off on the pass...this could entail moving the mic (the best place for the mic is on the floor ~25 feet strait out from the a single side, mic lying on the floor on a towel or other soft surface ...even carpet .. aimed at the speaker being measured. (indoors that is, unless you are doing Dennis's ground plane indoor flattening, which you should do anyway so you have a fallback preset for ANY room you cannot use the auto eq on, and to have it for comparison purposes, to see what the room is doing to the sound.
But it is a terrible mistake to simply trust that the auto eq will ALWAYS do the right thing indoors... that is simply a fallacy...
Gadget
Soundog has it nailed. There are many ideas presented in this thread, but the jist is how to "fool" the driverack into auto-setup a single mono bi-amped speaker.
Soundog - can you elaborate on how you finally got it going? I have tried a few things listed here, willing to try more - i don't know, maybe the room i'm doing it in (a converted garage) is too reflective.
dergy
The only difference between a stereo, and dual mono setup (in the PX especially) is that the Auto Eq will ask you to Auto Eq each channel separately... so where is the benefit in selecting dual mono over stereo? you'll not be fooling ANYTHING, or anyone! Least of all the PX, because the only way to do a dual mono setup, and Auto Eq the system is to let it do both channels...and with no sound coming from the right side (which doesn't exist) it will eventually give up and just say NOT DONE...
G
To fool the DRPX, I ran both DRPX output cables to separate channels on my mixer, then a single line out of the mixer to the speaker. Make sure you have the mixer levels set identically, no eq, and no gain changes. Everything must be flat, with the mixer basically acting as a balanced and protected Y-connection.
When you run the Wizard, DRPX sends output alternating between what it "thinks" is the left and right speaker, but output is really just going through the mixer into the single speaker. So, you can get through the whole speaker balance and EQ process.
I ran the EQ Wizard outdoors once (away from reflective surfaces), and again in the best acoustic space in my house. I compared (and pretty much averaged) the curves, then created a preset with a nice smooth hand-edited curve that translates nicely to all the venues I have played in since.
For the AFS Wizard, I just my single speaker setup to create 5 Fixed feedback notches, catching the most common direct feedback loops between the speaker and my acoustic guitar and vocal mic, then I use the remaining Live notches for whatever the room presents where I play.
Works great for me.
It introduces unacceptable signal paths to the audio that WILL degrade the signal.. and flys in the face of the purpose of the driverack.. "To eliminate all the signal degrading components and cabling between the mixer and the speakers with one digital processor!"
You seem to not understand that it takes 2 TOTALLY different signals to create a stereo signal! That even if you send two identical signals through a stereo device it's still MONO!!!! Dual mono.. but still MONO
Our purpose here is to make sure that the information provided here is accurate and reproducible! What you profess is neither of those.
Now, if you had followed this post in the FAQ section:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=953
for indoor auto EQ you would have a flat preset for difficult rooms AND something to compare your "room" auto eq passes to...You provided NO info other than: :roll: what does that mean to anyone else?
If you had followed this post:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=949
You would know why your outdoor auto eq pass, that provided absolutely NO details of speaker placement, mic placement, surroundings, or volume of auto eq pass... is not valid.
If you stopped thinking in terms of "stereo" and started thinking in terms of one channel at a time for mono, you would realize that if you had selected a stereo input to the PX (and provided the L/R output mixer outputs to the L/R inputs of the DR) you would have been able to put either output on the single speaker and run the auto eq pass you would have EXACTLY the same GEQ on BOTH channels... then select one channel (either, I usually select the left one for continuity, and because in dual mono it wants to ALWAYS do the left channel first) for the system input, and the same side for the output and Viola~ you have a valid MONO system! you could even send the mixer signal to the DR with the pan control centered and have the EXACT SAME signal to both outputs...
I realize your natural reaction to this post is going to be to strike back at me, but I caution you... I am moderator here and as I said our goal here is to ONLY provide accurate, valid, reproducible content that reflects the collective knowledge base of the "entire" pro audio community, and NOT just that which is under discussion here! Your content provides NO documentation... NO details of the methods used to achieve your results and frankly I would have probably left my comments at but your response made that impossible.
Your welcome to post anything you want here, but you will be called on to account if you post more content like this. I allow a LOT of latitude, but draw the line at unsubstantiated content.
Gadget
dbx moderator
While I recognize & respect Gadget's expertise on the subject, he isn't the one frustrated in the garage after 3 hrs of trying to get something that should be simple to work, because of the NOT DONE/UNABLE TO FINISH scenario. If it wasn't for my morbid curiosity I would've ditched the whole thing and used my ear for a manual setup. In fact, the thought crossed my mind to ditch the PX altogether, as it is not obviously designed for this setup - something that isn't obvious in the "brochures" (whereas I believe the PA model is).
Reading this forums threads and understanding the context isn't always straightforward either - its a professional piece of equipment, but due to the "auto" setups, is attractive to those not so versed in the physics of sound & room dynamics. That said, I am versed in physics (part of my music degree), but still find someone else's interpretation in the threads as hard.
Just puttin it out there... I do appreciate the effort ppl go to, esp. Gadget, in posting tho... is gr8 that we can drill upon others knowledge in this way, even if it is to constructively argue.
Ok, there are only 2 things that can cause the "Not Finished" scenario...
1. You have chosen dual mono in the setup wizard. In this scenario the driverack has been instructed to post ""Not Finished", meaning that the Auto EQ wants to process the other channel...
Now, that said, it could ALSO be that the the second factor was also present here and that is:
2. That more than 4 EQ bands of the 28 bands have been fully cut or boosted... We can tell this by exiting the Auto Eq and pressing the EQ button till the GEQ shows up, and looking for bands fully cut or boosted. (Its a good idea to look at ANY suspect frequency band.. that is to say, if you see that 3.15K is boosted 8.5dB and the HF is tearing your head off...well.. that should be EQ'd by ear.)
Any number of things can cause this:
a. Bad measurement mic position
b. band speaker placement
c. bad speakers
d. Improper speaker setup (I.E. you have a fullrange speaker and you have the hipass set @ 120hz BW18 and the driverack is looking for content in the lower bands like 31.5 40 50 63 80.. because you told the crossover to exclude those bands....Or you have a 3 way system with fullrange tops and subs and you set the subs to tops crossover point too far apart...
e. bad measurement mic/ wrong mic type (must be ruler flat in response)
f. bad mic cable
g. bad speaker cable
some other setting you forget to disable prior to the Auto EQ pass, like parametrics left on that had large cuts or boosts..
Now, we have gone to great lengths to de-mystify this process. There are any number of articles in the FAQ section that describe in great detail the setup procedure, gain structure, Auto Eq, AFS, compression...etc.
Don't assume anything...With the DRPX you don't have the luxury of the newer algorithms, and indoors, in a garage? VERY difficult to get an accurate Auto EQ...all that sound bouncing around...multiple paths to the mic with cancellations galore...
Did you try this method? It was obviously done in a garage
It takes almost all of the bad indoor problems out of the equation.
Remember that indoors if there is more than one path to the measurement mic, and that path is enough out of phase, it will provide some to total cancellation. Multiply that by endless interactions and frequencies, and is it any wonder that the driverack finds 4 or more problem frequencies?
Add to that, indoor standing waves, super bass nodes that set up indoors and again provide false measurement information... and is it any wonder why we say that is isn't just a button push away from perfect sound? It does work, but you have to know the problems and follow the rules.
Now if you provide specific information on exactly what you did.. we can come up with answers as to what the problems are.
Gadget