New to PA+, feeling overwhelmed, where to start?
DeuceRidingDJ
Posts: 12
I am a mobile and club DJ and have several different variations to set up for. 
System 1) 1 Crown K2 amp and two EAW FR153z speakers on sticks (8 ohm load)
System 2) 1 Crown K2 amp and four EAW FR153z speakers on sticks (4 ohm load)
System 3) 1 Crown K2 amp, four EAW FR153z speakers and two Community SRX-60B subwoofers {stacked - two FR153z's on top of each SRX-60B} (2 ohm load)
System 4) biamped, 1 Crown K2 powering four EAW FR153z (tops) (4 ohm load) and 1 Crown K2 amp powering the two Community SRX-60B subwoofers {stacked - two FR153z's on top of each SRX-60B} (4 ohm load)
System 5) Two QSC HPR 153i powered speakers (full range)
System 6) Crown Macrotech 2400 powering two JBL tops and a JBL sub (model #'s not currently known, but will get [club install])
I bought the reference mic, although it hasn't yet arrived. My PA+ arrived and I have read through the manual several times, and I think I understand I have to set the gain, prior to setting the "tuning," prior to setting the EQ, then the limiters/compressors.
Although I've been a DJ for more than 20 years, I am feeling rather intimidated by the manual and the thought of trying to get this all set up/configured myself. :oops: There is a local sound reinforcement company within an hour's drive, but their consultation fees are unfortunately out of my range. (I'm struggling in the horrible Michigan economy and this purchase was a big investment for me, but one that I feel my sound needed for improvement).
The PA+ is allowing me to drop an Ashly external crossover, an Alesis M-EQ 230 equalizer, and an Alesis Midiverb4. I will be running all balanced cables from my Rane mixer to the PA+ to my Crown amps and/or QSC HPR 153i's.
I'm thinking that initially, I should try to set up the "simplest" system with one amp and two EAW FR153z's for full range, save my setting as a "custom user setting" and then move on to the next "system configuration," save that configuration once tuned, and then proceed to the next system configuration.
However, prior to my reference microphone even arriving, I am feeling askeered that this is going to turn into a dust collector because of my feeling overwhelmed with even getting started! :shock:
Much to learn and kinda wishing I had an uncle in the music tech business! OK, I expressed my anxiety to the forum, now I will go back and reread my manual again.
System 1) 1 Crown K2 amp and two EAW FR153z speakers on sticks (8 ohm load)
System 2) 1 Crown K2 amp and four EAW FR153z speakers on sticks (4 ohm load)
System 3) 1 Crown K2 amp, four EAW FR153z speakers and two Community SRX-60B subwoofers {stacked - two FR153z's on top of each SRX-60B} (2 ohm load)
System 4) biamped, 1 Crown K2 powering four EAW FR153z (tops) (4 ohm load) and 1 Crown K2 amp powering the two Community SRX-60B subwoofers {stacked - two FR153z's on top of each SRX-60B} (4 ohm load)
System 5) Two QSC HPR 153i powered speakers (full range)
System 6) Crown Macrotech 2400 powering two JBL tops and a JBL sub (model #'s not currently known, but will get [club install])
I bought the reference mic, although it hasn't yet arrived. My PA+ arrived and I have read through the manual several times, and I think I understand I have to set the gain, prior to setting the "tuning," prior to setting the EQ, then the limiters/compressors.
Although I've been a DJ for more than 20 years, I am feeling rather intimidated by the manual and the thought of trying to get this all set up/configured myself. :oops: There is a local sound reinforcement company within an hour's drive, but their consultation fees are unfortunately out of my range. (I'm struggling in the horrible Michigan economy and this purchase was a big investment for me, but one that I feel my sound needed for improvement).
The PA+ is allowing me to drop an Ashly external crossover, an Alesis M-EQ 230 equalizer, and an Alesis Midiverb4. I will be running all balanced cables from my Rane mixer to the PA+ to my Crown amps and/or QSC HPR 153i's.
I'm thinking that initially, I should try to set up the "simplest" system with one amp and two EAW FR153z's for full range, save my setting as a "custom user setting" and then move on to the next "system configuration," save that configuration once tuned, and then proceed to the next system configuration.
However, prior to my reference microphone even arriving, I am feeling askeered that this is going to turn into a dust collector because of my feeling overwhelmed with even getting started! :shock:
Much to learn and kinda wishing I had an uncle in the music tech business! OK, I expressed my anxiety to the forum, now I will go back and reread my manual again.
0
Comments
Dode.. nothing to worry about.. I know how you feel, I was there once.. a long long time ago(in a galaxy far.. far away!)
First though we would very much appreciate it if you'd spend less time with the manual and more time reading what we have provided...start here:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959
This thread will take you through a basic setup and gain structure...
Now, the DRPA+ offers auto setup (level) which is only helpful if your doing a tops subs, or a three way setup..
remember this, you can always get back to the same spot (your selected config) by pressing the [xover] button.
When your working with the DRPA+ and the presets are available for the speakers and the amps... simply by selecting the given equipment you have in the wizard setup will get you close right off the bat...
One thing.. we need more info on the SRX - 60b subwoofers.. I could find nothing on them...(especially since SRX is a trademark of JBL...
The first setup... the FR153z/ K2 is so easy a caveman can do it..
Press the [setup] Wizard button... this will take you through the setup process for this configuration...
choose Stereo
Choose stereo again
choose top speakers FR153z (these are considered passive)
select subs (none)
select K2 amp
set the dials on the amp to the same location as the display...
press the center of the data encoder to load the preset..
NOTE ... the preset has NOT been saved.. and when you DO want to save the setup (after all the setup is done) you will need three...3 successive presses of the [store] button to save the preset.. this will involve:
Name the preset...
Select the location you want for the preset like U1 (user 1)
and are you sure you want to replace this preset?
Press store for each when you are satisfied that you have answered the questions to the best of your knowledge...
Next read some more... no, not the manual..
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=960
This will answer a bunch of questions..about setup you might have that aren't answered by the "start here" thread
next lets look at the Auto eq process...
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2346
the DRPA + has a far superior auto eq algorithm... but still, there is no substitute for a flat preset, set up outdoors one side of the PA only...away from all reflective surfaces including driveways, sidewalks and such.. even trees can be a reflection...
follow the instructions and set up a flat preset for each system config... there are 25 user preset location (and 25 factory presets that can be re-loaded by a hard reset...so don't worry you can never loose the factory defaults completely...(I have found them all useless..)
Some other reading:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1681
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1204
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1659
Now, when you have that preset stored you'll move on to the tops subs config...
Run the Wizard setup...
select the FR153z
select (here we need to know about the subs).. but select stereo or mono subs, "custom"..since they are most probably not in the menu... then the amps.. again K2
set the input sensitivity controls to what the display says.. then press the center of the encoder to load the program... here is where the auto level setup comes into play.. simply follow the prompts...
press the xover button to get to the preset location...
(once we have better info on the subs we can provide HPF (high pass filter ..info which id the lowest point we want the speakers to go for that band of frequencies be it low or mid or high, and LPF (highest point we want the crossover (speaker) to go...for the low or mid.. (there is no LPF for the high outputs)
example...
HPF sub (low outs) 45hz BW18
LPF sub (low outs) 100hz LR24
HPF high outs 100hz LR24
This will allow the subs to cover about 40hz to 100 hz and the tops to cover everything from 100 hz on up
Once the balance is set and the xover run the Auto EQ and set up a flat preset for this configuration and store it...
NOTE: the low end auto EQ is usually going cut the crap out of the low end.. we DJ/KJ/Sound guys like a lot of low end... so some user "tune by ear" is necessary here...
I usually turn the sub amp down 3-6dB before auto eq and then turn it back up afterwords and then manipulate it by ear..
I usually set a PEQ @ about 60 hz with a narrow Q like 4-5 and cut some.. like maybe 3-6dB
and set another @ about 100hz.. a fairly wide Q like 1-1.5 and cut that as much as needed to get rid of the boominess..
I also like to set up a PEQ @ 250-300hz with a likewise wide Q like 1-1.5 and I usually always end up cutting this indoors.. cuts out the muddiness.
That's enough for now don't you think?
Always here
Gadget and company...
Thanks for your response.
My subs are actually Community CSX-60B cabinets. Here's a link:
http://www.community.chester.pa.us/files/literature/spec%20sheets/discontinued/csx60_s2.pdf
LF Drivers:
Four 15" (380mm), Ferrofluid-Cooled
Speaker Protection: PowerSense DDP
Frequency Response: 35 Hz to 150 Hz
Power Capacity: 600W RMS
1,500W Program
Recommended Amp: 1200W to 1800W @ 4 Ohms
Sensitivity at 1W, 1M: 105 dB SPL
Nominal Dispersion: Omni
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms
Crossover Frequency: 150 Hz
I've had these bass cabs for almost 20 years. I used to run them with macrotech 2400's. I long ago upgraded from 2 macrotech 2400's and 2 macrotech 1200's to three K2's (much less current amp draw). I also replaced 4 Community CSX-52s 3-way speakers for my EAW's. I had hoped to upgrade to EAW bass cabinets, but a divorce and the economic downturn foiled those plans. So... I am using old equipment, but want to get the best sound quality possible.
Lately, I have been wiring my speakers in parallel from one Crown K2 to Eaw FR153z to EAW FR153z to CSX 60B to make a 2 ohm load on the K2. I could run sub output from the PA+ to a second K2 amp and set the PA+ x-over for the subs.
The HPR 153i's sound beautiful, although they are in a permanent install and I don't own them. I get to use those speakers abotu 1x/month.
The JBL system is in the bar I work in 3 nights/week during the week. I'd really like to get a tuning done to improve the sound quality in there as well.
I'm kinda worried about using the RTA mic to get a flat freq response outdoors, as I have road construction going on all summer which is a loud ambient background noise.
I've read quite a few posts in these forums and I think the more I read, the more overwhelmed I feel. How very little I know compared to all the pros! I read somewhere that you are/were also a DJ, or your son is, I don't remember the specifics (I've read so much in the last few days). I VJ in a bar three weeknights and do weddings/proms/corporate on the weekends. I'm also hoping to get rid of my BBE as well and have this DBX Driverack PA+ be my "end solution." I will read over your post and the links that you provided. My only concern is that something that might seem as simple as tying your shoe to you, might seem incrediibly complex to me. I guess I'm feeling "caveman complex" at the moment, but I'm hoping to get over that within the next couple days!
But, were here to help you with that. Just take it one step at a time. Did you see this post?
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=953
When you simply can't Auto EQ outdoors you can get usable results using this method.. and if your in a place where you can't even get the speakers moved, as where they are hung, the DRPA+ can cut the red tape and give usable results most any room.
Make sure that the mic is in the control pattern of the horn in the speaker, place the mic on the floor to avoid reflections to the mic as much as possible. Place the mic on something soft, like a towel, and aim the mic at the speaker...but just one side running.. mute the other. It means less paths to the mic. The DRPA+ is also very fast at auto eq...a few seconds versus the older DRPA's seemingly endless droning jet engine.
As for the subs... they have a very prominent peak @ 80hz, and are more than 10dB down @ 40 hz. With the power you have available I'd.. I'd suggest a minimum of 40hz BW18, and probably since they are older 45 hz...
I wouldn't suggest running the amps @ 2 ohms... especially the way you do it... but I'll have to get back to this later.. time to try and sleep again...
G
I didn't have time to set up the PA prior to last weekends reception. Tonight, I set up two user selections.
U1) is for just my FR153Z's as full range with one K2 amp
U2) I set up for the FR153Z's as high and a custom for my Community CSX-60B subs as low.
I set the xover for the speakers as you had suggested:
HPF sub (low outs) 45hz BW18
LPF sub (low outs) 100hz LR24
HPF high outs 100hz LR24
I have not set gain, nor have I done an auto EQ for either configuration. I have not had time, means, or a place outdoors to properly use the pink noise to get a flat response outdoors.
Now I'm having a panic attack because my amps and my "rack" are in my house. My speakers are all in my trailer, and I have no setup at all for the Driverack for the speakers at the bar and I work in the bar tomorrow night (and need to have great sound).
Is there a setting to "bypass" everything the Driverack does to simply run sound out from the mixer as if the Driverack was never wired into the signal path? Is that user 25 "dual passive" setting for that type of scenario? Now that I have my PA+ wired in my rack, I don't want to completely rewire it to be able to play in the bar's sound system.
In my bar set up, I am only going to be able to run output from the "high outs" of the Driverack into the club mixer. I could go in early and get the model number of the JBL tops, but I won't be sending a seperate output for the JBL sub, so I am unsure how to program the PA+ for that. I certainly won't have time to run pink noise and set the EQ.
I'm also freaking out that if I'm not balanced, gained, and EQ'd properly, my sound is going to sound like sh*t at my wedding this weekend, and I can't have that happen!
U1. The only thing you've done is added an HPF of 40hz LR24
as homework I want you to verify this...
load the preset ..press the xover button, note that it says 40hz LR24 and shows a low shelf
press the EQ button repeatedly and note that there is no eq whatsoever.. PEQ's or GEQ's
U2. That looks good for the tops/subs setup you have and will be fine.. WAY better than daisy chaining like you have been doing...simply use the controls on the amps to balance the outputs (lower the volume of the louder speaker set)
Also, the DRPA+ is lightning fast @ auto eqing...anywhere in your house to set one speaker on the floor, and get a clear shot to the mic lying on the floor..say 10-15' away... like a carpeted living room? You could even do it in a shorter span if you use the "New indoor method" maybe 5-6 feet or less.. depending on how far you can safely tip the speaker...
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=953
except place the mic on the floor... like this:
Your speakers are bigger so be prepared to move the mic back a bit so that the mic is in the primary field of the horn specifically..
Should take about 5-10 seconds max...
You could then transfer the settings to the U2 preset.. unfortunately, you can't just transfer a 2x2 into a 2x4 preset.. but it's not difficult to transfer the Eq settings one at a time...It takes me about a minute to do this (granted I'm a BIT more skilled...but it's not difficult)
Hopefully you have set the unit on the table and played with all the buttons and knobs and know what they do and how to modify all the aspects of the presets...you can not screw anything up, as you can always return to factory defaults.(note that in doing so you will lose all user modified settings.
So, in short for the bar just use the 24 or 25 presets and you basically have a clear slate strait through processor.
The Driverack is an awesome little box, and it's going to make a big improvement in your sound.. but you need to chill out and let the technology do the work.
Read what Tim wrote here on may 17th...
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2354
Gadget
Gadget
My Community CSX-60B subs specs are:
Four 15" (380mm), Ferrofluid-Cooled
Speaker Protection: PowerSense DDP
Frequency Response: 35 Hz to 150 Hz
Power Capacity: 600W RMS
1,500W Program
Recommended Amp: 1200W to 1800W @ 4 Ohms
Sensitivity at 1W, 1M: 105 dB SPL
Nominal Dispersion: Omni
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms
Crossover Frequency: 150 Hz
My Crown K2 specs are:
4 ohm Stereo (per channel) 800W
4 ohm Bridge-Mono 2500W
I set the crossover at 45hz and 100hz as you suggested, HOWEVER
I'm thinking that I should run the R & L subs both from the Crown amp, but run the (subs) K2 amp in Bridged-Mono and plug one banana plug into the K2 for Bridged-mono configuration and plug the other banana plug (for the second sub) into the first banana plug (piggy-backed).
If my thinking is correct (regarding these specs I posted), I would not have to worry about under-driving the subs.
HOWEVER, if I run both subs off the K2 in bridged-mono, I should be sending output signal from the PA+ in low mono mode and run that mono line to Channel 1 (mono for bridged-mono configuration) on the K2. I would connect the banana plug across the positive terminals and have the Channel 2 level control turned all the way down. Then I would plug the 2nd banana plug into the first banana plug for the 2nd sub cabinet.
Thank you so much for your last response!!!!
You must have been typing while I was typing my question about running my subs in bridge-mono mode!
I did just check my PA+ for U1 config and in Xover it shows hpf 40hz LR24 0.0 db with a flat line.
I am just scratching the tip of the ice berg here and I am already SO excited!!!
Again, thank you thank you thank you for your responses!!!
Lord no! you cannot go bridged below 4 ohms..it would be best to bridge an amp on each of the subs... if you have the amps...that would give you a little over 600 watts per woofer.. which is the rating plus a little headroom.
You can go 2 ohm stereo but you'd only be feeding the speakers a little over 325 watts each..and that isn't enough to really get them going...
G
Again, thanks for your quick response!!!
I do hae a 3rd K2 amp, but it's in a permanent installation (in my home studio) and I don't want to pull it in and out of the rack.
I guess I'll run the subs in stereo from the PA+ to the K2 in a 4 ohm load (stereo).
Two oil changes plus a brake job today, and I work in the bar tonight. I hope yet to take advantage of your advice and picture so as to set the balance and gain on my speakers.
QUESTION: Would I do that with just one of the tops? because I always run them sitting side by side on top of the CSX-60's. Do I also set the balance and gain for the subs?
My living room is large enough (and carpeted), but those subs are awfully big to maneuver around a residence!
Thanks again!
Now, place a PEQ in the 'L' band (press the eq button repeatedly till the 'L' is highlighted.. then turn the PEQ's on, and toggle to PEQ#1 set it to a bell (not a low shelf) and set a center frequency of 75hz, set a 'Q' of about 2 and be ready to use this as a flattening tool if needed...The CSX 60's have a 3-5 dB peak @ about 75hz (or so) in live sound that might accentuate the kick first harmonic.. in DJ work it might be a bit boomy...
So then put it all together see what shakes out! I'm betting with all those 15's that there will be a buildup of 250-500hz and will give a muddy touch to the sound.. so a PEQ in the 'H' band @ 300hz with a Q of about 1 or so... be prepared to cut it till the mud is tamed...this will most likely be venue dependent and may not always be necessary.
Gadget
G
Question: If I have speakers (fill) hanging around everywhere (around the walls) and have two JBL tops and a JBL sub on the dance floor in front of the DJ booth, should I set the mic on the floor or on a mic stand in front of just one of the tops (and disconnect the other top) to set it up in the bar???
I guess I could even set one of the tops on the floor and throw a king sized comforter on the dancefloor with the mic on the thick comforter (lol) but that might work???
Man, I owe you lots of beer! I appreciate your input in this forum. This is really taking me to another level!
Hey I raised 5 kids on that carpet...I refuse to rip it up as long as there is a steady stream of teenagers dragging copious amounts of contamination through the room.. besides it's getting hardwood flooring as soon as I can afford the whole atrium upgrade to the front of the house..the way Obamma is spending our money... might not EVER get done...the weather is ALMOST stable enough to allow for carpet cleaning
I know I know.. "The department of redundancy department" but hey, the divorce didn't do anything for the budget.. ask Mikey...
"There's nothing to see here folks.. move along.. move along..."
I just wanted to let you know that I had a chance to use my PA+ with my EAW's and Community subs, biamped with the crossover set where you recommended. My EAW's sounded better than they ever have and the overall sound quality was a vast improvement. I set the gain using the amps as I didn't have time to use the reference mic to finish the set up. I'm looking forward to finishing my set up, and may be back for more questions. I wanted to thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions and offer suggestions!!!
Keep us informed please..
G