Bad nite

premier1

Last nite was horrible ! I feel like I lost everything I learned,our singer was all over the place and she kept walking out in front of the speakers and it was a feedback nightmare from hell...The monitors were feeding back, if it could go wrong it did last night, overall the system just seemed so hot last nite, real tinny and my highs were not adjusted out of control, I even turned them all the way down on the vocal chanels , something was off anyway it just made for a bad nite, now it will drive me crazy to re do everything and find the place I went wrong, I could not eq the room with the amount of people eating dinner so I just turned off the GEQ to flat...Just Bad...Im an amature for sure and instead of being calm I panicked and started turning things off...so much for trying the subs out last nite

Dra

Remind us... did you tune your system outside using the auto EQ and then transfer the data to the PEQ's as best you could?
Did you use the AFS to get rid of the worst problems? What was your process?

DRA

premier1

I used the AFS in the DRPA, It filled up lightning fast leaving me two live chanels, The afs 24 chanel unit did help alot on the monitors, My process was to set up, turn everything on and then do a walk around with the mic etc using the same settings I used last gig however those setting were done outside as our last gig was outside, I know its a world of difference thats why when I realized I couldent auto eq the room I turned it off leaving it flat, as the band began to play of course I was being shouted at to "turn me up" by the singer while the bass is saying turn down the snare and more kick please along with our guitar player yelling at me that there are to many "highs" , so between songs I made rapid adjusments on the board itself I swept the mids down a bit and also the highs because as the fader went up so did the feedback after awhile I had a mess, I am sure th PEQ would have tamed alot of the poblem but I have no idea how to use it yet , I thought by using the eq on my mixer itself I could take care of it but it just didnt work, if she stood still in one place everything was ok however you could tell it was very near feedback...Do I really have to completely change everything for every gig? In some ways having this equipment seems to have added a much higher complication factor vs when I just just used a large powered mixer, I realize I have a much better system now its just learning how to tame it to give me all its potential, I am very interested in what you mean by "transfering" eq data ovber to peq? I have no understanding what that means of even what the peq can do exactly as I have never used one before, what do you use..bell? LH shelf? L shelf? I dont know what to set it on??? I just know I have heard people say it can do wonders for feedback issues, Thanks

Dra

Every speaker, even the very good ones, has some natural dips and peaks in their response curves. A speaker with a +3db response from 400-1.2K will have feedback problems in that range. Add a room that is resonant in that range as well... well you get the idea. Rather than rehashing the process of flattening a speaker's response, do a search.... for "flatten, flat, flattening session" etc Maybe Gadget has a link handy.

DRA

Dennis

Just to be clear, there are two separate operations that can be done with auto EQ. The first one is to set a "flat" baseline for your system and it would be done outdoors in your driveway or some other place where there are no boundaries that would cause reflections. The auto EQ adjusts the GEQ and when you come up with a curve that looks believeable (as in a curve that doesn't contain a bunch of side by side frequencies that are boosted or cut to the max) you can manually transfer the general high and low points to the PEQs on the outputs of each of the pass-bands. The next step is to set your GEQ flat and what you are left with is a baseline that will be a starting point for all of your gigs.

The second operation would be for tuning your system to the venue. A lot of venues will not allow you to use pink noise because of customers. This operation is trickier than the outdoor operation and you can do more harm than good if you don't know what you are doing. Gadget will have more details to share on this second operation.

Just correctly completing the outdoor operation will give you a great starting point and even if you can't tune to the venue, I doubt you would have another "crash and burn" with your FOH...monitors are another topic.

Dennis

Gadget

Thanks Dennis...
I had a long elaborate post all ready and the damn computer ate it :evil: I will attempt to re-compose.

As Dennis has so eloquently put it, the outdoor auto eq when flattening the system offers a number of benefits...especially for "inexpensive" speakers that have MANY compromises... (we'll get to those again in a moment) A stored flat preset will allow you to go into many rooms and have usable results without ANY changes... a flat response means that EQUAL energy is applied to all of the ISO center frequencies that the driverack uses (28 in all). This means that there are less "spurious" (overly accentuated) frequencies to excite the room.

You can EQ a speaker to a room, but you can NOT eq a room....only a bulldozer can do that

HOWEVER, Eq is a poor way to deal with indoor acoustics and should be looked at as a last resort for dealing with this issues...

Lets take a look at your speakers and see what we can determine:

1. HF pattern control: 90x50... means spraying high frequency sounds all over the hard surfaces( walls, ceiling and floors and any HVAC, hanging lighting, pipes, poles, Art... you get the idea right? Those frequencies bounce around and cause feedback and cancellations and all manner of sonic chaos. (40X60 would go a long ways toward offering better pattern control and less activation of active rooms)

2. With a 15" woofer and horn that crosses in well north or 2000hz, you have BEAMY midrange, meaning instead of even coverage, it acts more like the HF and beam reflected energy that once again causes all manner of sonic chaos. (but mostly feedback, and uneven coverage)

3. Uneven frequency response. It takes great drivers and un-compromised cabinet design to even come close to a speaker that has 20-20,000hz response and flat response. (NOT something you get in a speaker any where NEAR that of the Tapco line) NOT what you have in those speakers of yours...in fact, EV is so proud of those speakers they don't even provide a spec sheet much less a hyped frequency response chart, or an EASE chart or even a frequency based directivity chart...

Now, EVERY room has a point of no return, meaning that there is a point where one more dB added will cause the sound to break down completely (and every speaker system, the more you push it past the sound level that you tuned it at, WILL start to feed back...it is inevitable)

So, you made a big mistake going to unprocessed...... you don't know if it was the monitors that were causing the problem or the mains...

Lets take a look at the monitors and mic placement now.

There is a "best" monitor position for each mic pattern...here is some reading:

http://www.ratsound.com/2009_12_02_polars.htm

Note that the max rejection position for the mic is at the 180 degree position (or right opposite the mic stand and with the mic butt ... where the cord comes out... ) aimed AT the horn of the monitor.

Whereas, the super cardioid mic has maximum rejection at 125 degrees left or right of the center point of the mic...

So placement of the mic is critical for best gain before feedback. I suspect the monitors were VERY guilty in the feedback machine you created...

Note also that "IF" the mains were not tuned properly, AND they were positioned in such a way as to be "heard" by the mics... then feedback would be a definite problem... make sure the mics are well behind the mains...

I am very interested in what you mean by "transfering" eq data ovber to peq?

I would rather see you use the auto eq from flat and then set up 3 PEQ's for the system...

1. Set @ 50hz with a Q of about 3.0 and you could add or subtract (but I suspect you will need to cut @ that frequency)

2. Set @ 350hz with a Q of about 1.0... again I suspect you will want to cut there to help with room modes

3. Set one @ 2k5 and again a Q of about 1.0 add gain for more clarity, and cut for squeals

4. there is an additional room mode that could develop around 120 to 160 hz that one would be addressable with a Q of about 1.5... and is almost always a cut as well...

As for the amount of these cuts, you will need to experiment... the PEQ's are NOT like GEQ bands and need to be listened for more carefully.

All for now...
GADGET


Gadget

premier1

Thank you gadget, this post is going to the printer! And lol I relize My speakers are not good quality, just waiting on the dough to upgrade the right way ! I want to bite that bullet once and do it right, can you suggest a set of tops? I also want to go down to 12s..again thanks for the reply I am printing it out and will read it until it sinks in! Great bunch of helpfull people here!

By the way here are all the specs on the tapco 6915 if it helsp at all, whatever you can deciper from it and your thoughts on anything would be greatly apreciated, Thanks again


6915 Specifications
System
System Type: Two-way, full-range loudspeaker
Frequency Range (–10 dB): 47 Hz to 18 kHz
Sensitivity (1W @ 1m): 101.1 dB SPL
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Power Handling: 300 watts continuous
600 watts program
Transducers
Low Frequency: 15 in/381 mm woofer, vented
High Frequency: 1 in/25 mm tweeter,
Physical
Input Connectors: One 1/4� TS jack,
one Speakon jack, paralleled
Enclosure: Wood with textured black PVC vinyl covering
Dimensions:
Height: 28.1 in/71.4 cm
Width: 17.8 in/45.1 cm
Depth: 15.6 in/39.6 cm
Weight: 51 lb/23 kg
Mounting: Pole-mountable

Gadget

Ya.. I know the specs... :roll: I searched them out to see just what I could find... not much..but thats the thing about inexpensive speakers, little info and no details to mess up sales...just hype...

Right now my favorites are the D.A.S. Audio RF 12.64...

http://www.dasaudio.com/index.asp?pagin ... ia=158&d=0

they run just under $800 and are THE BOMB :shock: for the buck. Northern Sound and Lighting sells them, but they don't advertise them... you have to call and ask specifically for that model.

That speaker is better than the JBL SRX series @ double the cost...Maybe Dr. J will chime in.. he bought a pair solely on my say so.. and he's pretty blown away by them...and he had JBL to begin with...

Dr. J

Hey G! Got your email. No the Bus isn't mine on my facebook (Too bad!) but we opened for Blackberry Smoke and Jackyl about a month ago. 16 EV manifold sub boxes (4-18's per box for a total of 64 -18's) across the stage and all I could hear was MUD!

It sounds like this guy really did have a BAD Nite. Geesh -- I remember those. I also remember trying to decide what would make the next biggest difference for my system & you and Dennis kept saying, "Gotta get new tops" & don't go with 15's get 12's. Well, that is what I ended up doing and Gadget is right about the best bang for the buck. The D.A.S. audio Rf series 12.64 has got to be the best bang for the buck. There is no way you can build a box with that kind craftmanship & components. They array nicely, have several rigging point options including rotatable horns. I don't think I will bother to buy another type of FOH box honestly. $782.10 per box plus whatever shipping was (don't remember).

Anyway Premier 1 -- hang in there and get to work on the outdoor tuning stuff. It is the only way to get your sound more even. New tops would help tremendously BUT learn everything you can on here and you will be fine.

Hey G -- Did you ever get a Smaart rig going?