New Setup questions

almendoza

Ok so with the new setup

FOH
Mackie Mixer 1604VLZ3>DBX Driverack PA (grey face)>XTI 2000 stereo mode (475 watts ) >Yamaha S115V (500 watt PGM)

>XLS 802 Bridge mode > 2 Yamaha SW118 (600 watt PGM)

Monitors
Off Aux 1 >DBX 131 EQ >XTI 2000 stereo mode Channel 1 has 3 Yamaha SM112V Floor wedges (350 watts each)
Aux 2 >DOD EQ> Channel 2 has a Harbinger Floor wedge (speaker replaced with Eminence Beta 250 watts )for drummer.

I have some questions

My Input meters show a nice strong signal

the subs signal seems low so if i adjust the crossover gain for a stronger signal ( so meter is at 0 ) do I need to adjust the limiter and how high on the low meter can I go safely ?

limiter is On Over easy set 4 thresh is -3db does this sound right ?

system definetley sounds better with the setup outlined here in the forum so thanks guy's

premier1

The gain on the low xover will bring it up but dont go to far or you will have nothing to come up with on your mixer a few db seems to do the trick, I have, since learning here,I have left the limiter and comp alone off, I wouldent use it at all, it caused me alot of problems lol, I am sure there is a right way to use it but I am doing alot better now without it

almendoza

Thanks that was going to be my next step...how far do you push both output signals above -0- ? I will move the low gain up a few db I think it will help. My limiter seems to be on alot so I'm assuming its not setup right so I'm going to turn it off and re think how the setup should be

Dra

Curious... have you set up the gain structure and limiters using the step by step instructions in the READ ME FIRST section above?

If the limiters are coming on a lot, then, one of two things are true...
1) One or both are not set up correctly.
2) You are trying to play louder than you system is capable.

DRA

Gadget

how far do you push both output signals above -0- ?

All the way :shock: Actually the reason for this discrepancy is that the subs are the LEAST efficient, and MOST power hungry. You could theoretically boost the low 12dB or more, but there is a corresponding shift in the acoustical xover point. That is to say, that if you add say 10dB to the sub outs... you could have selected a 100hz xover point and the actual point might be closer to 150 hz...Adding 5-6 dB isn't a big deal, but you may need to change the electrical crossover point to actually gat the crossover point you want.

As Dra says, the limiters could really get you into trouble if your not careful... you could actual CAUSE speaker failure with the limiter!
Gadget

almendoza

Yes, I used the setup that is in the READ ME first very good write up I must say !

Dra I used the "setting up limiters section " in The READ ME but obviously I misread it and messed it up limiters on all the time is a big clue that something is wrong.

I have now done the Math ( I like math ) and come up with the following to enter into limiters now ...

for the tops 8 ohm

Driver 38.23db
Amp 38.01db

Limiter set to 4db overeasy 4

Subs 4ohm
Driver 39db
Amp 41.45db

Limiter set to 3.45db overeasy 4

Question if I raise xover gain on subs 3db do I raise limiter 3+3.45=6.45db ? in other words add 3db to current setting ?

BTW my current settings are not anywhere close to these mathmatical ones !


DRA on Your second point you are correct the others guy's seem to think they can just "turn all the knobs and whistle's till it sounds good " I don't know everything but I'm going to try and educate myself a little at least so I don't blow up part of my investment they don't realize the system has limits...no pun intended

Thanks for all Your help

Albert

Dra

Anytime you change the gain structure, you'll need to redo the amps and the limiters.

DRA

Gadget

Just remember..the limiters in the DRPA are NOT brick wall. The BEST protection you can give them is to NOT use a limiter and NEVER clip the board.. or the amps... the limiter is nice for OOPS :shock: protection.. and inadvertent fader boosts... "Dude I cranked her up while you were gone!" :evil:

I like using them sometimes when the venue is riding me about volume levels...it cuts the apparent volume level by decreasing the dynamics. As the night goes on... and the place fills up, I raise the threshold back up.

Great care needs to be taken when using limiters and compression...as the limiters get hit harder and harder the board meters keep going up and up but the volume only increases minimally, however the amps are getting an increased duty cycle...this in turn heats the voice coils of the speakers unnecessarily...You would be shocked how little of the amps power actually gets to the speakers.. and a cone woofer converts 95% of the power into heat...

Myself, although the "math is fun" method is theoretically correct... I like to find the volume I want to run, set the threshold to just start flickering on the gain reduction... then if someone drops a mic or mashes a fader it's not so destructive.. or noticeable.. but also doesn't overheat the voice coils...

Gadget

almendoza

I'm familiar with this one

"Dude I cranked her up while you were gone!"

My favorite though...

Looks like a Christmas Tree doesn't it ! :evil:

"The BEST protection you can give them is to NOT use a limiter and NEVER clip the board.. or the amps"

I'm hoping to "train" the other guy's on how to NOT push the board into the red no matter how much they want to .

Thanks for all the great advice I'll report back next week after the gig

almendoza

Gig rained out I'll post next week when we have our next gig

mitchiemasha

I only recently spent the good part of 2 hours trying to explain to a local club owner how the use of 1 hard walled limiter on there 3 way system is what most likely caused all there mids to fail. I drink in this club and I always found it highly amusing how the music got extremely louder when ever a brake down came in.

Poor speakers got no time to breath especialy with that red lined pioneer pumping out the juice.

What I want to know is who works for these sound companies who charge them so much to do the things they do.

The owner was like, 'yeah but the compressor is there to protect the system'. I Replied yeah, from accidents. When you put your seat belt on you dont start deliberatly crashing into things do you..

Gadget

I Replied ...When you put your seat belt on you dont start deliberatly crashing into things do you..

That's really good!

I'm gonna have to use that (with or without your permission )

I was just talking to one of the other past students here and his favorite quote of mine (when talking about amplifier power)( when the poser say's " but what good is having power in the amp you don't use.. as in twice the rated speaker power)

"Your car can do 100 mph.. but that doesn't mean you HAVE to go that fast all the time right?"... "But it is nice when you have to pass someone!"

'yeah but the compressor is there to protect the system'.

Might just as well add propane heaters to the magnet structures :roll:

Thanks.. that was priceless...
G

almendoza

Ok so here is what I ended up with for limiters board was at -0- on mixer Band playing full throttle ...LOUD :shock:

High side
Overeasy 4
Threshold 12db
crossover moved to 118hz

Low Side
Overeasy 4
threshold 15db
Crossover moved to 118hz
Gain +1.5db

Question should I have a low pass and a high pass for the sub to limit its Frequency range ?

I was able to tweak it while the band played short 20 second songs..I had them play various songs to get a feel of the systems response ...

at first I listened to how i set it up then saved it to a preset called OLD after my final tweaking was done I saved it to user setting called NEW compared it to OLD WOW I could really hear a difference even the guy's commented on how much a diffeerence it made ..

Thanks for your help.... the guy's now see that just "moving " all the knobs is not the best approach ....

Now to figure out how to get the best sound from that drum Kit !!!

Gadget

Question should I have a low pass and a high pass for the sub to limit its Frequency range ?

Most definately...most any place where speakers are in close proximity, and the speakers reproduce the same frequencies... the overlapping frequencies will produce comb filtering, cancellations, modes and all sorts of sonic anomalies...
G

almendoza

Thanks Gadget ... Now off to setup those xovers for the subs ...next... EQ's & PEQ's

Gadget

Perhaps this will help:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1204
G