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New and a Little confused

Rustic_CircleRustic_Circle Posts: 2
edited December 2010 in PA Configuration Wizard
Here is my issue. I didn’t get the RTA mic I probably should have but I will later if you all say its better. When I tried to do the setup wizard It doesn’t have my configuration. I am running mono with my 4 full range cabs split on 2 -4000 watt amps in parallel mode. My 2 subs are on one 4000 watt amp also in parallel mode. So after fighting the setup wizard I just went in and picked a preset, edited it and it sounds good, needs more tweaking but overall it sounds good. It will feedback if I really jack up the slider on the board. How do I set the feedback suppression to stop that? Like I said I’m not real sharp on some of this stuff. Also I noticed that the LEDs on the I guess would be the master output is only hitting the second level occasionally. Is that normal or am I missing a setting somewhere? Take a look at my puney layout, did the best I could with MS paint. Thanks for any help. Ill attach a file of the drawing just in case the other isn’t readable.

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Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    You have to realize that in a processor with many of the functions tied together true mono operation isn't possible...HOWEVER.. if you only use one input (left in this case) and two of the outputs (left low and left high) you would be using 1/2 of a 2X3 ( mono sub) or 2x4 stereo subs. So set up a stereo tops and stereo subs and use only one side of the Driverack... problem solved...

    If the subs are single 18" and 8 ohms You might want to go bridged mono, you'll up the power from 750 watts per speaker to 2000 (peak watts per speaker).

    I'm not a JBL fan... and especially their low line JBL stuff like the JRX series.. so I'm not surprised you get feedback when you kick it.. those horns are are HARSH...

    The measurement mic will help a lot with feedback issues and harshness.. but if you don't have money or want relief right away set up the PEQ's like this
    Sub:
    PEQ1...Bell curve, 60hz, Q= ~7.0
    PEQ2...Bell curve, 100hz, Q= ~5.0-7.0

    Tops:
    PEQ1... Bell curve, 170hz, Q= 3.0-4.0
    PEQ2... Bell curve, ~335 hz Q= 1.0
    PEQ3... High shelf, ~2.0K 6dB/octave

    Most of these are CUTS and will vary some in frequency.. you would cut say..3-5 dB and then sweep the cut up or down a bit and see what sounds best, then vary the amount of cut.. till it sounds best. These are common problem areas... and the high shelf should help with the harshness and HF feedback

    The 335 is a mid muddiness indoors...

    The 60hz is an indoor front loaded sub high efficiency point...

    I would suggest a 100hz LR 24 crossover from subs to tops, and a very steep HPF for the subs @ 45 hz BW18.

    Gadget
  • Great, this is VERY similar to the set up I have. I've been meaning to post several questions, just the band that I help out (at this point in time) plays very seldom - so there's a good chance that I may not be able to hook the PA up for another 3 months.....

    Please bear with me as I try to get a few problems answered, or just check to see if I'm doing this correctly or the best way possible. I will definitely use all help/tips I can get, and use them the next show we have. Sorry if I throw too many questions at once.


    Equipment -
    exact same tops and subs as the original post (except, only 2 mains and 2 subs).
    amps - Berhinger 4000 (as shown) for tops, and a Berhinger 1500 for the subs
    PA+
    monitor amps - QSC GX3
    Monitors - Behringer B212XL (800W peak)
    Mixer - A&H 16:2 mixwizard.

    How I set up the PA+ (from what I recall, it's been a few months) - I set it up using the wizard, and the RTA mic. Sometimes it sounds OK, other times it sounds like crap. Just basically looking for the best settings possible. I run a 1 x 4 set up (mono out from mixer to LEFT in of PA+, High and Low outs on PA+).

    Both amps are run parallel - I'm not quite sure about bridged mode. If this is the best option, do you set the amp to bridged, have 1 input and 1 output, then daisey chain the speakers?

    Tops - I 'm usually ok with the sound. Although one mysterious phenom happened last show - the lead guitar was BLARING from the left speaker, and just right in the right speaker. Everything's run mono - I tried everything I could think of to troubleshoot. All pans a noon. Guitar is run direct from a Boss ME50 in mono. But regardless, if the mixer and Pa is set to mono, why would just the lead guitar be louder in one PA speaker?

    Subs - Maybe the amp, but I can hardly ever get a good thump from the kick drum. Bass guitar is OK, but the drum just sounds like crap. EQ'ing from the mixer doesn't produce the results I'd like. Last show, the kick drum's fader was at about 85-90% (by far, the highest setting of ANY instrument) and was barely satisfactory regarding volume.

    All amps are set to just below clipping (performed gain structure per great instructions here). If I recall, clipping occurs at approximately 11 o'clock on dial on amps.

    Monitors - OK, this does not involve the PA+, but with the wealth of knowledge here, maybe you could help. The lead singer's monitor seems to not get the volume it needs and I can't figure out why. I do a gain structure on the monitor amps and set the dial. Literally, for the singer's monitor, the "master monitor volume" is set to 3-4 o'clock (suggested setting is 3 o'clock), and his individual monitor knob for his vocals is set to MAX. Ok, to clarify, it's the VOCALS that are hard to hear. Vocals are maxed out in the monitor but the volume is severely lacking. I've sang in it myself, and it's just not coming through loud and clear. Is it possibly the crappy berhinger speakers? I can't turn the amp up more or it will clip.



    I think that's it for now. I really appreciate any help given. I've read a whole lot of the info here already and read quite a bit in the "read 1st" section. Just trying to make sure I'm running the best way possible.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Ok, so just how loud do you think the subs are going to get with 400 watts of power? Because that's what your feeding them if they are 4 ohms...Even if you bridge the amp you'll be feeding the subs 700 watts each. To get them going you need "MORE POWER UHUHUH" :mrgreen:

    The OP didn't specify the subs model but looks like the MRX515...if that is the sub, they want 1000 watts each / 2000 watts peak. THAT would go a long way toward getting them going...

    Even the OP had the amps in parallel and was only feeding them 950 watts @4 ohms parallel/stereo/. That amp uses smoke and mirrors to claim 4000 watts... that is a PEAK power rating with who knows HOW much distortion... that is actually a re-branded EP2500 (discontinued) with the exact same specs but a PEAK factor added in...shameless marketing scam... :|

    So, in short part of the problem is you simply do not have enough power to get the subs going.. more info on the monitors please.. what are you doing exactly
    G
  • Yeah, I realize there is a serious lack of power for the subs. Just wondering what I can do (or if I am) to best utilize what I have. (actually the speakers and the amps belong to the band - I'm just helping them - and I've told them they need a bigger amp).

    The subs are actually the JRX line - 18's. 4 Ohm

    Amp - EP1500 - 2 x 700W at 2 Ohm; 1400W at 4Ohm bridged

    On to the bridged mode - I still don't understand how to set this up and run 2 speakers. (I think I just need some schooling in the relationship of watts & ohms). Ok, since it says 700W at 2 Ohms, since my speaker are 4 ohms, if I run parallel then the power is halved, right? So if I run the amp in parallel (each channel going to one speaker) each speaker is only getting 350W max? The only way to get 700W to each speaker is if the speakers are actually 2 ohm, right?? (which is rare for a speaker to be rated at 2 Ohms, right) Ok, so you switch the amp to bridged mode - here's what I understand; If this amp can produce 1400W at 4 Ohms bridged, this means that I can supply 1400W to JUST ONE of these speakers, right? If the speakers where then daisy chained, (here's where I get confused) this would double the Ohm to 8 Ohm, or half the Ohms to 2 Ohms? (Does daisy chaining mean series or parallel?). If it's Series, then it goes to 8 Ohms, and then then they only get 700W each? Is this correct? Damn, I think I'm confusing myself more asking these questions!!

    With this amp, would it be best to run just one sub? Would this produce better results - getting adequate power to one sub vs too little to 2 subs? Would the 1 sub be powerful enough for a band?


    Monitors - Please clarify what info you need? Pretty simple set-up actually. Aux 1 output -> to GX3 input -> GX3 output -> monitor. Mixer's master Aux levels set between 3 and 4 o'clock; vocals channel sent to Aux 1 set at damn near max. You'd think just with the volume knob setting I have that the monitor should be SCREAMING, but it's not. Can't figure out why.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    On to the bridged mode - I still don't understand how to set this up and run 2 speakers. (I think I just need some schooling in the relationship of watts & ohms). Ok, since it says 700W at 2 Ohms, since my speaker are 4 ohms, if I run parallel then the power is halved, right?

    Not really.. but close,, as I said the amps specs 400 watts @ 8 ohms and 700 in bridged 4 ohm (That by the way is the MINIMUM impedance that is safe for that amp and will cause it to draw much more current than the stereo mode....)
    The only way to get 700W to each speaker is if the speakers are actually 2 ohm, right?? (which is rare for a speaker to be rated at 2 Ohms, right)

    No, you have a minimum of 2 ohms stereo and 4 ohms bridged, so if you put 2 subs on one channel in stereo you would still only have 350 watts per speaker. And, since the subs are 4 ohms you cannot go bridged to 2 speakers.. only one.
    If the speakers where then daisy chained, (here's where I get confused) this would double the Ohm to 8 Ohm,

    Again, no.. parallel 2 speakers that are 8 ohms become 4 and then if you hook them in "series" you would get 8 ohms...
    With this amp, would it be best to run just one sub? Would this produce better results - getting adequate power to one sub vs too little to 2 subs? Would the 1 sub be powerful enough for a band?

    You would have 1400 watts for one sub...but the rub is, there is NO way those subs will be enough... even with both, and when you have 2 subs in near proximity you get 3db of free gain (almost 1/2 again as loud...)

    you probably need 4 subs and another 4000, and another 1500... run the 1500 bridged per top and the 4000 2 subs per amp...
    G
  • Plain and simple - I have to talk these guys into buying another (or 2) amp.

    Any idea why I can't seem to get the volume for my monitors? Maybe I should try a different (brand/type) speaker next time, just to see....


    So, how about PA+ settings? Is my 1x4 ok? How about x-over settings? any other suggestions on how anything else should be set up?
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Any idea why I can't seem to get the volume for my monitors?

    You didn't provide me with the information requested...

    I need EVERYTHING you can tell me about the monitor setup.
    So, how about PA+ settings? Is my 1x4 ok?

    No, technically... the DRPA/DRPA+ cannot do a 1x4... or 2X4 for that matter.. If your doing a mono mix for tops and subs, that would be a 1X2... if your doing a tops/subs/monitor you are only able to do that with a 2X6.

    The setup depends on what your going to do amp wise...

    I guess if it were me, and I was stuck with that setup I'd use the EP4000 on the subs (one per channel) and use the EP1500 for the tops... that's 400 watts per top and 950 watts per sub...

    then I'd do this:
    Sub:
    HPF 50hz BW18
    LPF 120hz LR24
    tops:
    HPF 120hz LR24

    Are you planning to use the DRPA for the monitor send?
    G
  • I'm not sure what other info I can provide regarding monitors. I'll see what I can get for you, in case I left something out.

    Ok, yes, I guess it is a 1x2. Sorry. Thanks for the suggestions you have given. I will give them a try next time we play a gig - no clue when that will be.... :roll:


    No - I will not use the DRPA for monitors. Mixer -> amp -> speakers
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    That amp... the QSC has only got 300 watts per channel @8 ohms... thats not as lot of power... but..

    What I'm getting at is, have you cranked the amp up all the way...where are you feeding the amp from? One of the Auxes?
    if so have you tried setting the aux masters volume control higher?

    These are the kind of things I mean when I say what are you doing with the monitors.

    G
  • I thought I covered the aux levels - forgive me if I didn't.


    I just thought of this, so pardon my getting off track for a minute - Regarding the amps and the speaker volume - In my solo acoustic shows I have run basically as I do the monitors. My solo set-up is

    A&H mixwizard
    2 peavey (don't have model #), but they are 2 way with one 15" (mains)
    QSC GX3 (for mains)

    I've also used the Behringers mentioned as mains, and a single Peavey (mentioned above) as my monitor.

    Those amps (GX3's) used in combination with either the Peavey 15" or the Behringers 12" have produced absolutely ZERO volume issues. Used as mains the fill up small club sized venues just fine (again, solo acoustic stuff) - plenty loud, and sometimes have to turn it down.

    My point to this is, while they may not be "very" powerful, they are definitley enough to be used for vocals and acoustic as mains - so why in the world can I not get the same volume as a monitor?



    Ok - back to monitors - to simplify, I'll just relate this to the singer only, and his specific channel.

    His mic gain is set to just below clipping (I know how to set this), so mic gain isn't the issue here
    His monitor is Aux 1
    Aux 1 Master level is set to approx 85-90%
    Aux 1 on Channel 1 (his vox) is set to 90%+
    (you'd think the monitor would SCREAM with these levels)

    Amp: (note, this is what I recall doing from a few months ago. memory may omit a few details)
    After doing gain structure (per instruction on this site with pink noise from this site) on main amps/subs, I did one for the monitors. I left the master AUX level at approx 3-4 o'clock, zero'd Aux 1 on channel 1, set amp level to max. Turned up the channel 1 Aux 1 until amp clipped. Turned amp down until no longer clipping - which was approx 11 o'clock.

    Do monitor check and almost max out Aux 1 on channel 1. Volume is insufficient.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Sounds like the AUX sends are not getting enough signal...Have you tried dialing in a bit more input gain and running the fader a little lower? That would give the AUX sends more gain.

    G
  • Ya see, I have the gain set to just below clipping though already. I have the singer hit his loudest parts - PFL check and set to upper limit of yellow lights. When I set the main mix up, I set the MASTER mix volume to approx 0db (the area shaded on the fader for suggested set level), then adjust all of the channel faders around that. If I boost the gain on the singer's mic, I'll think I'll be too close to clipping.

    And to think of it, I had this same trouble with the bass player and drummer with their in ear monitor system - so, yeah, for some reason maybe the auxes aren't getting enough signal - I have no clue why. In the drummer and bass player's case, originally I did have "stupid" moment and had the master AUX at 1 o'clock. Turned that up, and all is fine now.

    Not the case with the singer.....



    Could I try to max out the amp level, then (starting at zero) turn up the Aux 1 level on channel 1? But have him sing loudly, turn him up hopefully to an acceptable level, and then check to see if there is clipping on the amp? Kind of backwards I know, but thinking of anything!

    BTW - thanks for your patience and you help.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Ok, you have a few things backwards...It's more important to have the channel faders @ unity than the Master fader... that way you minimize the noise... think about it this way, you have 16 channel faders and 1 master...

    So,
    1. Set the channel PFL for the singer to ON so that the master meters now show the channel strip gain. Now have the singer sing as loudly as he ever will
    2. Set the channel input gain so that you have a good strong signal but not clipping (and I think I just figured out what your doing wrong)
    3. Make sure that ALL the monitor mixes are PRE fader :mrgreen:
    4. Run the vocal up to the design center (unity) Other channels, like instruments should be treated the same way, but then those faders should be used to "mix" the other parts of the group at appropriate levels... in other words, the vocals should be on top of the mix, and @ unity/design center of the channel faders, other instruments will be slightly lower but still well above the level you have been running...(I figure that's the rub here, you are running post fader and that means that the Auxes are dependent on the fader level for their output)
    THEN set the master fader to however loud you need to be...

    G
  • Ok, I'm officially confused now - The mixer's manual suggest that the master fader produces the best output and suggest it be set close to unity.

    I'll def try it the other way around though.

    AUX 1 thru 4 are all pre fader anyway (unless something's switched that I don't know about). I believe only AUX 5 & 6 can be switched to pre or post fader. From what I understand, it's pre fader and ONLY pre fader (aux 1 thru 4).

    Ima go read the manual....just in case I somehow have them set to post fader......



    Just read it - 1 and 2 are pre fade. 3 and 4 are switchable. 5 and 6 are post fade.

    So then this should not affect him if his monitor is Aux 1...right? Damn, I wish it was that simple, lol.

    And I just thought - it can't be a pre/post fader problem. I set the monitor volume FIRST, then set the main volume.

    So typically - check mic, get signal, set gain, raise monitor volume, raise channel fader main mix volume
  • DraDra Posts: 3,844
    What you are doing is compromising, because of YOUR set-up, juggling mains and aux's. The manual is assuming a lot when it recommends things. Gadget will not lead you astray.

    DRA
  • Understood - and agreed. I've read enough here since I signed up to know that he is EXTREMELY - and possibly freakishly - knowledgeable! As you and a few other are as well.

    As mentioned, I will def try it.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    The Mixwiz (at least the one I looked up online) is switched in 2 groups...1-4 pre post, and 5/6 pre post. The 1/4" outs, TRS are +21 dBu into a 2K load and the XLR's are +26 dBu into 600 ohm load, so... the line outs do NOT have the same output potential as the XLR outs...

    If you are not the original owner of the Mixwiz there are internal jumpers that can be configured many different ways. The easiest way to tell if it's post fader... is, hook up the monitor amp/speaker (the way you normally do) and see if the channel fader affects the output.

    Here's the deal with the noise floor....and you tell me which makes more sense...you have 16 channels, each that can introduce noise into the mix, you have the option of optimizing the signal to noise ratio of the 16 channels... to get the strongest signal and the least noise on up to 16 inputs, or... put the master fader @ unity and risk noise on all 16 input channels...

    BTW you can do both...perhaps..if you were just using an amp, you could turn the input level control of the amp DOWN so that the large signal from the mixer would match the amps input sensitivity, you can also try with the DRPA (which ALSO has internal jumpers...) but make sure you don't approach clipping the input or output of the DRPA... then again use the amps input sensitivity controls to set the input voltage level on the amps.

    As for the knowledge.. I am simply paying it forward...When the internet came to be I spent countless hours researching .. just as you are now. I read everything I could, when the Driverack came to my attention I got one.. and was hooked immediately.. It was a DRPA and as soon as the 260 came out I got one too...I started here about 10 years ago asking questions just like you, and reading every post I could... even going back a few years, and just started regurgitating information I read, I started making my own experiments and tests and came up with the methods that are posted in the FAQ's with the help of other good folks like Dra, Dennis, Mikey, Kevin, Coop, and others over the years. dbx approached me a number of years ago and asked if I would moderate since I'm here most of the time... and the rest is history...

    Gary... the real Gadget ( I got that handle because I
    "have more damn gadgets"
    :mrgreen:
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Why not consider running the singers monitor through the DRPA+ as outlined in the FAQ?
    viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2228

    You would then have the added gain available and the GEQ and 2 PEQ's, as well as the feedback suppressor...(assuming the DRPA... this post IS in that section)
    G
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Here's an amp that might just be powerful enough to get that Behringer speaker going...
    http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/be ... asheet.pdf
  • Monitors solved - I must 1st say that those Behringers are absolute crap! I think what the problem is with those is the sound field from the tweeter is super narrow. You hear it fine, then you move your head 6", and it drops! I'm exaggerating yes, but you get my point.

    I used one of my ancient peaveys instead. PV115 or something like that. It's a monitor wedge only, built like a tank, about 60-70lbs. I then cranked the GX3 to max. The mixer AUX setting was at about 12:30, and had PLENTY of volume (compared to maxed out previously)


    Not much input on any of the other issues. I could only stay to set the band up - not run sound all night. I switched amp (the 4000 on the subs, 1500 on the tops). Didn't notice much difference, but I only had the kick drum going to it. The bass wasn't run through the board at all, and the kick drum mic is absolute crap. So I can't really say if it made much difference because there's not much proof to base it on.

    Thanks for the help so far. I'll be back.....

    Gadget, check PM, please.
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