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Need help with "aux speakers"
twkd2
Posts: 32
Hi Folks,
I've recently completed "fixing" a very poorly installed system for a church in a GYM! The room is about 100x60 and they have a stage that is built at one end. They have invested a decent amount in acoustical treatment so it is not the sound of a typical GYM.
Currently they have a left and right array of JBL VRX932LA-1 consisting of 3 cabinets each (6 total). They are powered. They also have a Crown XTI-4000 running (2) SRX728-S subs. They are using a Yamaha LS9 Console and a Driverack 260.
The sound coverage is good until you get to just past half court (walking away from the stage) and then the mids/highs drop off pretty rapidly.
We are looking for a good and inexpensive solution to provide a little more coverage throughout the gym. I didn't sell or install the original system and I've told them the VRX900 Array didn't have enough throw to cover the whole 100' but we have to work with what we have.
I have an extra XTI-4000 amp to donate to the project and I'm looking to fly 2 more speakers somewhere in the middle of the gym to cover the back of the room without buying another whole VRX900 array.
I know Gadget in the past has recommended the DAS Audio RF 1264 cabinets and I've actually used them however I don't know how well they'd do hung 20' in the air to cover the last 40' of this gym. It is my experience that the DAS cabinets actually sound much better than the JBL VRX900 Array.
I welcome anyone's input.
Regards,
David
I've recently completed "fixing" a very poorly installed system for a church in a GYM! The room is about 100x60 and they have a stage that is built at one end. They have invested a decent amount in acoustical treatment so it is not the sound of a typical GYM.
Currently they have a left and right array of JBL VRX932LA-1 consisting of 3 cabinets each (6 total). They are powered. They also have a Crown XTI-4000 running (2) SRX728-S subs. They are using a Yamaha LS9 Console and a Driverack 260.
The sound coverage is good until you get to just past half court (walking away from the stage) and then the mids/highs drop off pretty rapidly.
We are looking for a good and inexpensive solution to provide a little more coverage throughout the gym. I didn't sell or install the original system and I've told them the VRX900 Array didn't have enough throw to cover the whole 100' but we have to work with what we have.
I have an extra XTI-4000 amp to donate to the project and I'm looking to fly 2 more speakers somewhere in the middle of the gym to cover the back of the room without buying another whole VRX900 array.
I know Gadget in the past has recommended the DAS Audio RF 1264 cabinets and I've actually used them however I don't know how well they'd do hung 20' in the air to cover the last 40' of this gym. It is my experience that the DAS cabinets actually sound much better than the JBL VRX900 Array.
I welcome anyone's input.
Regards,
David
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Comments
Before you run out and purchase delay speakers, lets run some tests and do a bit of measuring...we might as well find out what the system is capable of in your venue. VRX is not actually a line array..I believe they refer to it as a Constant Curvature Array. You dont have the ability to adjust the angle of each box but you can adjust the tilt angle of the entire array. VRX is not long throw but you might get more out of it than you currently have.
Typically, an array is tilted down far enough to keep the energy off of the back wall. In the case of you VRX system, the amount of down tilt is partly responsible for killing the highs in the back part of the venue. As we tilt the array up higher, we will get more highs to the rear of the room but at the same time we will get more highs on the back wall. We are looking for the best sounding compromise.
You will need to rent a man lift or a scissor lift to access the arrays. you will need a laser level and an inclinometer would be helpful. Place the laser level on top of the array, aimed at the back wall and check the tilt...I expect the top box is focused toward the floor at the rear of the room. This test will consist of raising the tilt angle of each array and then do a listening test. You will do a few of these tests at different tilt angles in order to achieve the best compromise. You will change the tilt angle by a combination of using different holes in the fly bar and using a tilt cable or strap at the rear of the array. The inclinometer will be handy for measuring each tilt angle that you use for a listening test...you can repeat later at exactly the same angle (take notes on angle and coverage).
I would set up the DR260 with one or two outputs for subs, two outputs for bottom and middle VRX (L and R), and two outputs for top VRX (L and R). This will give you the ability to increase the gain to the top boxes in order to reach the back of the venue. I am aware that, typically with a line array it is not desireable to change the total level of an entire box because it interferes with pattern control of the lower frequencies and it is better to change the level of the highs only. But in this case you have only 3 speakers per side and you don't have enough pattern control to even worry about.
After all of this, if you still feel you need delay speakers, purchase two more VRX and use them for L and R delay. I suggest these because they will sound the same as your mains. If you already have an amp, purchase unpowered VRX delays and save a few bucks.
Dennis
DRA
Thanks for responding. I've spent a considerable amount of time researching the VRX932 systems in the past few days and have a much better understanding. BTW, it's the powered version (LAP) that we have.
I've spent time working with the angles, "shading", variable outputs to different modules in the array as well as using the VRX932 Array tool. The conclusion - that in a 3 per side configuration in that venue they can't cover the front of the stage to the back of the room. I could do so with another set of them ($5000) but they won't invest the money to do so and trying that approach will have it's own set of issues (reflections off the ceiling, etc).
I don't feel a single set of VRX932's will adequately cover the back half of the venue (only a 15 degree coverage per cabinet).
So I'm seeking recommendations for a set of delay speakers that will act as a fill for the back half of the gym. Still thinking the DAS 1264 cabinets would be a good fit and are relatively inexpensive.
All input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
David
G
I loathe the idea of putting up powered speakers in a fixed installation. Besides, I have a spare XTI-4000 doing nothing! I like the idea of "overkill" and being able to back it up a notch or 2.
RF1264?? What say you Gadget?
Maybe it would be easier to try to cover the rear 75% of the room with the arrays and use front fills for the front 25%. Going with a different tilt angle on the arrays and placing a couple of speakers on sticks at the front with the level set at 5dB down from the array level looks quite smooth. This would be an easier operation.
Whether you go with front fills or delays, I think you should look for some used JBL SRX712M that have similar components and sound to the VRX. Since the ultimate goal is to have consistant sound through the venue, what do you hope to accomplish by going with a different brand/model of delay/fill speaker?
Dennis
Actually the VRX Array tool did a pretty decent job of predicting where the sound would fall off within a few feet.
A little more background info. This is a dual purpose venue - a gym and a church. I can't have any units on the floor so everything has to be flown (no speakers on sticks).
The gym is 100' long and you are correct, the arrays cover about 75'. The majority of people sit within that 75' feet however there are those that like to "hang at the back" as well as that is the mix position.
I will look into the SRX712's as you may be right, those could be the best fit for their needs. I have since found out they have some QSC K12's that aren't being used so that may end up being my fill.
Why do I want cabinets of a different brand? Because I really dislike how the JBL's sound and would rather put an AM Radio speaker in before a JBL cabinet. Besides, the DAS Audio RF 1264's are some bad ass speakers!
As far as arrays in this type of application I like the Worx Audio Trueline V8i's but there's no way they can afford to rip out what they have and install these. Do you guys have some line arrays you like? Just curious.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
- David
I knew there was something about you I really liked
Of the ones I've heard I really like the D&B stuff, L Acoustic, The EV XLC is ~ but Dennis works more with line arrays than I do.. I don't think a line array is the right tool for that place at all. For the money thjey spent they could have gotten Danley sound... now there is a company that makes some awesome speakers. and if you need pattern control...it's like walking out of the light of a flashlight...it's there... then it's GONE!
They installed 4 speakers in in the scoreboard ( and a few to cover the nearfield area under the scoreboard) and over 370 feet away the sound is still within 3dB and it's pretty much every seat in the house has the same coverage... with a total of 10 speakers...
Plus if you want low end... no one does it like Danley..
The new brat on the block would appear to be Martin audio MLA only 3dB down 200 feet away! kind of re-wrote the physics on that one...
G
You still haven't told me what the best solution is for my current situation. If you could - would you do the RF 1264's?
How expensive is the Danley stuff?
In the case of the Jericho horns I suspect they are a pretty penny but then with 14 drivers and weighing in @ 760 lbs I suspect there would be significant cost...
As for the RF1264's I think they would be a good choice (Over kill to be sure... as I said), but I would surely throw those K12's up there and try them first...
G
The K12's would be an easy solution since most of the work has been done including their own amp BUT I don't think they mix well with other speakers and with the CONICAL horn style ---probably won't play together with themselves very well if you added two more down the road.
Have you really tried to tune up those JBL's with the 260? The tuning procedure really makes or breaks a judgement call on speakers. I don't think it would be fair to decide if a speakers is bad until it is really tuned.
Whatever you do -- I would stay away from mixing different models together. I have measured plenty of cabs now to know one might need correcting at a particular frequency while the other is just fine. How are you gonna correct?
Thanks for the response. As I stated above I have tweaked the array as much as I can and it will not cover the entire venue. I would need a 4th cabinet to do so. As it stands if I angle the cabinets up enough to cover the back wall of the venue, I lose coverage at the front of the room. The people that own the system don't want to spend 5k to buy another pair of them. I would love to yank the whole deal and put it on E-bay but that's not a option.
I am aware of the power requirements of the 1264's and we have a spare XTI4000 amp to run them with. As they are primarily going to be a fill, we would never push them and they will mainly be used to compensate for the lost mids and highs hitting the back of the room.
I found out the K12's are "attached" to a portable system and I may not be able to keep them. They told me I had about 2k to spend. So I can buy a set of K12's for about 1600 or the 1264's for the same price. The only thing in question with the 1264's is what gauge cable to buy for a 150' run?
As far as tweaking the delay speakers, well, that's what the PEQ in the 260 is for!
I think the 1264's with the rotatable horns might be the best option given the limitations.
So I'm curious about the Danley stuff. Full range? How are they crossing things over? How good are the TH Mini's? Better than the DIY subs? How much? What Danley subs will make someone crap themselves (Like Labsubs)? I think you referred to it as "poopy pants bass".
Ive used LS9, M7CL, Presonus and Berhinger. Presonus wins for audio quality.
Just a couple weeks ago I told a band to pick up the Presonus 16.4.2 desk for there setup because it is so much easier to work with, and it fits there needs so much better.
You dont have constant reprogramming and redoing work because the Presonus desk does not have a mind of its own like some digital desks Ive used.
Here is a very funny story for you. I was doing sound at the church my boss goes to, for my full time job, they have EAW very nice speakers, and an LS9. I actually made the desk stutter!!!!! 3 times in a a row!!!!! It was so funny!!!! I guise Yamaha desks just do not like it when you are flipping through layers and menus to fast!!!! Ive made the Berhinger X32 desk freeze a couple times too!!!! Oh the fun of live audio!!!!
Yah sell off the JBL and Yamaha and get Presonus and Danely, or Eminence loaded speakers. YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT!!!!