DRPA+ and Crown XTi's Overkill? or Over my head?
rickrideout
Posts: 15
Question, I'm using Crown XTi's with a PA+, I've read most everything you've posted about EQing a room and RTA mic's. ( some of it I comprehended ) But I find it much easier to control my system using the EQ in Band Master. So should I do a Flat EQ outside to get a good flat EQ or just turn the EQ and PEQ off on the PA+? Or should I just remove the PA+ completely from the system and do it all through the XTi?
I'm running a new tri amped system (2 weeks old) with
DRPA+, w/RTA mic
XTi 1000 on highs,
XTi 6000 on mid's and
XTi 6000 on subs with
JBL VRX 932 (1 per side) and
JBL VRX 918 (1 per side).
More info if you need it below.
I've been DJing for 4 years for a couple of dance clubs here in town. ( Ballroom and Swing clubs ) My other system is JBL PRX 515 (2 per side) and PRX 518's (1 per side). I'm using Virtual DJ and a dual CD player into a Numark C3USB Mixer then to a BBE 882i sonic maximizer (yes, I know what you think about it) then to the JBL's. Its always done a good job and I pretty much setup and play with no sound issues.
I got reading about the DRPA+ and tri amping and I thought I'd build another system based on the PA+ that would really sound great. So I built the new system I listed above. I'm still using Virtual DJ and the USB mixer but took the sonic maximizer out and replaced it with the DRPA+. I left the Crowns with DSP off and I let the DRPA+ do all the speaker tunings and GEQ and PEQ using the wizard.
My first dance with the new system was this past weekend and I went 6 hours early to play with the system before the dance. The building is an old VFW (60 X 80 ) with wood floor and concrete walls and lots of HVAC duct work over head. I set up the RTA mic and balanced the room and then did an auto EQ on high and it passed and then I gave it a try. It had very little bass and it sounded like it was in a barrel. I tried all the preset EQ's and none of them were usable, even after manually working on the EQ. I ended up using a EQ that I saved from home that sounded the best.
I know, I know you guys wrote about this but I was really hoping this was going to work and that all the post about it not working was on larger more complex systems, not for some small mobile DJ. But Noooo! Unfortunately it didn't work and you guys were right. I really fell for the YouTube video that has the DBX guy (wearing all the hats) showing how easy it is to set up a system using the wizard and just pressing the next page button. Even DBX's web site states "Within minutes, your system will sound like it was tuned by a pro! No experience required."
No experience required?
I still found the new system to be a struggle to keep every song sounding good with full range. One song would be prefect then the next would have the ear piercing highs or very little bass. Most of the crowd thought it was fine, but it wasn't what I was hoping for. ( I'm playing ballroom and swing music and only get up to 90 dB's or so. The reason I went with the VRX 932's is because I also play a large room 100 X 200 several times a year and I have to set up on the long side of the floor, so I need the sound to fan out more than I get with the PRX's. So instead of have two 515's per side I just have the one 932. Less to set up. (It was a nice thought)
The next day after the dance I got up early and set it back up at home and tried running the EQ through Band Manager. On the PA+ I turned the GEQ and PEQ's to off. I still used the crossovers and JBL speaker tunings from it. I was able to get it sounding the best yet and most every song I tried had a good full range of sound. I don't really know what the PEQ is really doing for me, and if turning it off helped or not. I have read if my amps and speakers are listed in the wizard not to mess with the PEQ and such because their already set for me.
Since I'm still running through the PA+ I'm worried that I may be working with a signal that's not true flat and I'm EQing some odd signal with Band Manager. So maybe it would just be better to remove the PA+ completely. I'm to the point were I feel using the RTA mic is a waste of time, it did nothing for me that I know of.
I figured posting on here and getting your input would save me a lot of aggravation and time, or make me realize I should have just saved my money.
Any advice or help you can give me I truly appreciate.
Sorry for the length and thanks.
Rick
I'm running a new tri amped system (2 weeks old) with
DRPA+, w/RTA mic
XTi 1000 on highs,
XTi 6000 on mid's and
XTi 6000 on subs with
JBL VRX 932 (1 per side) and
JBL VRX 918 (1 per side).
More info if you need it below.
I've been DJing for 4 years for a couple of dance clubs here in town. ( Ballroom and Swing clubs ) My other system is JBL PRX 515 (2 per side) and PRX 518's (1 per side). I'm using Virtual DJ and a dual CD player into a Numark C3USB Mixer then to a BBE 882i sonic maximizer (yes, I know what you think about it) then to the JBL's. Its always done a good job and I pretty much setup and play with no sound issues.
I got reading about the DRPA+ and tri amping and I thought I'd build another system based on the PA+ that would really sound great. So I built the new system I listed above. I'm still using Virtual DJ and the USB mixer but took the sonic maximizer out and replaced it with the DRPA+. I left the Crowns with DSP off and I let the DRPA+ do all the speaker tunings and GEQ and PEQ using the wizard.
My first dance with the new system was this past weekend and I went 6 hours early to play with the system before the dance. The building is an old VFW (60 X 80 ) with wood floor and concrete walls and lots of HVAC duct work over head. I set up the RTA mic and balanced the room and then did an auto EQ on high and it passed and then I gave it a try. It had very little bass and it sounded like it was in a barrel. I tried all the preset EQ's and none of them were usable, even after manually working on the EQ. I ended up using a EQ that I saved from home that sounded the best.
I know, I know you guys wrote about this but I was really hoping this was going to work and that all the post about it not working was on larger more complex systems, not for some small mobile DJ. But Noooo! Unfortunately it didn't work and you guys were right. I really fell for the YouTube video that has the DBX guy (wearing all the hats) showing how easy it is to set up a system using the wizard and just pressing the next page button. Even DBX's web site states "Within minutes, your system will sound like it was tuned by a pro! No experience required."
No experience required?I still found the new system to be a struggle to keep every song sounding good with full range. One song would be prefect then the next would have the ear piercing highs or very little bass. Most of the crowd thought it was fine, but it wasn't what I was hoping for. ( I'm playing ballroom and swing music and only get up to 90 dB's or so. The reason I went with the VRX 932's is because I also play a large room 100 X 200 several times a year and I have to set up on the long side of the floor, so I need the sound to fan out more than I get with the PRX's. So instead of have two 515's per side I just have the one 932. Less to set up. (It was a nice thought)
The next day after the dance I got up early and set it back up at home and tried running the EQ through Band Manager. On the PA+ I turned the GEQ and PEQ's to off. I still used the crossovers and JBL speaker tunings from it. I was able to get it sounding the best yet and most every song I tried had a good full range of sound. I don't really know what the PEQ is really doing for me, and if turning it off helped or not. I have read if my amps and speakers are listed in the wizard not to mess with the PEQ and such because their already set for me.
Since I'm still running through the PA+ I'm worried that I may be working with a signal that's not true flat and I'm EQing some odd signal with Band Manager. So maybe it would just be better to remove the PA+ completely. I'm to the point were I feel using the RTA mic is a waste of time, it did nothing for me that I know of.
I figured posting on here and getting your input would save me a lot of aggravation and time, or make me realize I should have just saved my money.
Any advice or help you can give me I truly appreciate.
Sorry for the length and thanks.
Rick
0
Comments
Where did you put the RTA mic? Be specific.
DRA
But If you mean have I turned the EQ off and left the PEQ on, then yes, which didn't sound great either. I will go back and try everything again as you bring them up though.
Is the PEQ part of the speaker tunings or part of the EQ?
On the RTA mic placement, I went out about the distance the two speakers were apart from each other. Around 15 feet dead center between them laying on mic the floor. With the mic pointed back at the speakers.
I have the PA+ set up as stereo with the EQ linked. I have my mixer set to mono, tried it in stereo also. Little better in stereo but I've always felt its best to play in mono for groups. ???
Thanks for the reply.
Rick
I'll assume that you are selecting your speakers in the selection menu? And selecting Bi-amp? That will set the PEQ's and the x-over points. Does the PA+ force an auto eq? If so, do it and then just flatten the GEQ.
DRA
Yes, I'm selecting JBL 932 Bi-amp and JBL 918 (stereo) for the sub's. Then selecting my amps.
I believe it forces an auto eq when I pick a preset EQ curve or even flat.
But I can manually set it to get it to flat EQ.
But I wondering how the RTA mic is going to help. If I set a flat EQ and then run the RTA mic isn't it going to change the flat EQ? Do I then assume that what I get after the auto EQ is now a true flat with the room? Or do I then manually set the EQ back to flat after I run the RTA? Which makes no sense either? Or should I just do a auto EQ flat outside and never use the RTA mic again?
See I'm totally lost. :?
Thanks for your help though.
Rick
Do the AUTO EQ pass inside, but after it's done, go into the EQ section, page to the GEQ and select to the ON/OFF, then just turn the data wheel to OFF and compare to the ON setting. The old rule of thumb for the Driverack is that the only range that should be trusted is between 160hz - 700hz. Everything else was "lies" and had to be dialed in by ear (usually after changing the boost / cut to 1/2 the value shown). After you make these changes compare the OFF to the ON. The PA+ supposedly has a much better result, but I don't know how much.
DRA
This makes sense to me and gives me something to work with.
I'll see if there's an improvement between the ON and OFF after using the RTA mic (and cleaning up the EQ on both sides of the 160hz -700hz also,)
Maybe this will give me a reason to continue using the RTA mic. Sure would be nice to actually see some improvements from using it.
Thanks for your help Dra, I may be back.
Rick
DRA
Placing the RTA mic in front of one side (stack) and turning the other side off was a huge difference. (Did I over look that somewhere? It shows in the manual to place in center with both of them on.) :?: Also knowing to change the value to half below 160hz and above 700hz made it like clock work. ( was a lot of them though ) I went though all of the Auto EQ curves and loved them all. I still found it temping to do a flat EQ on the PA+ and then mess with the EQ on the XTi's. ( Except I quickly figured out that if you don't set the XTi's to bypass on the EQ when your doing a new auto EQ on the PA+ it will really screw with you.) :oops: But I really didn't see much reason to mess with the EQ coming from the PA+, It was just about as good as I could make it on the XTi's.
I was testing in a work room I have on the house which is 15 X 30 and wood floor so I move the cars out of the garage, closed the doors and moved the system out there to see what it would do. ( lots of reverb ) I did a new Auto EQ with just one side on and it did great out there also, felt like I could have had a dance in the garage. (Except when the wife came out and saw your car sitting out side. It was about to rain.) :roll:
The next big test will be when I play at the VFW again. (3 weeks) It will be interesting to see how much difference this makes there. My feeling is, its going to be huge. This is the first time since I purchased the DRPA+ that I felt like it was doing something useful, Starting to think it was worth it now.
Thanks a ton for the help Dra.
Rick
Can I also ask you about Mono vs Stereo, I have the mixer set to mono but the PA+ set up in stereo. Is this wrong? I always think mono is when your going to bridge your amps. (or should I start a new post for this question?) Thanks
Don't over think this.
Stereo = Different program material provided to each of 2 speakers.
Mono = The same program material provided to each of 2 speakers.
Bridged Mono = Configuring a stereo amp into a single mono amp that uses both sides to provide all its power to a single output.
Bridged Stereo - Don't get excited. It just mean you have 2 amps, bridged mono, for each half of a stereo signal.
Your mixer is just combining the left and right "stereo" signals into one mono signal. "Y"ing if you will. The PA+ does know (or care) if it get a "stereo" singal or 2 "mono" signals.
DRA
I load up your system in the 260 Driveware.
You are limited to 3 PEQ's for the highs, but the 260 lists 4 major needs.
(Bell) 1K / Q 1.38 / -6db
(Bell) 2.31K / Q 2.63 / -4.5db
(Bell) 3.89K / Q 7.38 / -12db
(Hi-shelf) 12.3K / slope 9 / +8db
That is probably why you are lacking a bit as compared to the amp DSP.
Consider this.
JBL has "probably" only fixed the major issues with the 4 listed. Plug those into your amp's PEQ's. Go ahead and plug in the mid's and lows into their amp's PEQ's. Then take one sub and one top outside. With the amps PEQ's ON, run the auto EQ. Chances are you will have some smallish spikes and dips in the response 2-3 db, or so. Translate the GEQ data and change it over to the PA+'s PEQ's. Flatten the GEQ and re- Auto. It will take a few passes to work out the best center frequencies and best Q combinations, but in the end I think it will be worth it.
DOWNLOAD THE dRIVEWARE AND YOU CAN SEE HOW OVER-LAPPING AND UNDERLAPPING peq'S AFFECT EACH OTHER. (SORRY, NOT YELLING. ACCIDENTALLY HIT THE CAPS LOCK)
DRA
This is great, But now I have my work cut out for me, because half of what you said, I have no clue what it means. :oops: Remember for the past 4 years I've been running powered speakers with mixer and sonic maximizer. No amps, no PA+, no EQ, no PEQ's . I understand what your telling me to do, its just doing it for the first time is going to take me a while.
Now I guess I should have got the 260??? Would that make life easier?
Let me get as far as I can, then I'll see if I can get your help on the stuff I can't figure out. Its ok to yell, you may feel then need to yell at me at some point anyway.
Thanks for going to extra mile.
Rick
Thanks
Rick
DRA
All the bi-amp and crossover, and PEQ's to your tops and subs is also available and can be downloaded to Band Manager and directly into the amps...Since your using 2 different amps you'll have to do a little monkeying around with the setups, but it's really quite easy actually and you'll have a much better sounding system to begin with and THEN you can further see what you can do (once the system is properly set up) with the driverack.
Forgive me if you've already done this, but fro the reading I've done looks like your still struggling a bit here...
I think those speakers may already even be loaded into the presets... the one thing about Band Manager that sucks is the amps have to be hooked up in order to even get BM to work...
once its installed and working you would need to load the 932 into the 1000 and it will give you one channel of lows and one channel of highs... simply copy the high channel and paste it into the low channel, now you have 2 channels of high output in the Xti 1000's
Do the same with the Xti 6000 running the mids, simply copy the LF channel and paste it into the channel that is set up for highs...
You see they usually take one amp, like the XTi6000, run the highs on one channel and the lows on the other, but then the power of the 6000 is wasted on the highs...but that's the way they do it...so we have to work around it...do the same for the subs.
The XTi's have plenty of DSP to do the tuning and setup equalization, the DRPA+ does not.. BUT once the system is set up properly the DRPA+ offers a suite of tools to make the setup even better, including seeing what the room is doing to the sound and providing a grab and adjust GEQ for those quick adjustments.
Again, I haven't read every word of this voluminous thread but these things I posted are not evident in my perusal of the thread.
Gadget
Dra, Yes I download the GUI software a few days ago when you mentioned it. I installed the 260 DR and then did the wizard and installed my system. It was real close to what my PA+ was doing already with a few changes. I made some mods to the PA+ and learned some things that didn't make since before. The GUI helped me understand what I was changing on the screen where the PA+ doesn't show it as clear. I've also read the post ( more than once ) and its slowing sinking in on what to do. I have to read all these post many times to for it to finally make since.
Gadget, I'm running bi-amp on the tops and a second cable powering the subs. I built four sets of 4 connector speaker cables, (with speakon connectors on each end, 2 cables per side) one set runs to the subs (wires 2+ & 2-) and the other 4 connector cable runs to the mids and highs ( wires 1+ & 1- to mids and 2+ & 2- to the highs.) I have the VRX932's set on bi-amp. I own a 3d printer and made some plastic junction boxes where the wires from the 3 amps (all coming from pins 1+ & 1-) connect to the correct speakon (female) connector pins at the DJ rack. This makes it goof proof for getting the connections right each time. The reason I used wires 2+& 2- on the subs is so if I ever have an amp go down during a gig, I can quickly set up as a passive system and not have to make any changes to the wiring.
Well since you asked, Kevin at the Crown forums told me I was better off using the DRPA+ (not trying to start a fight) and not to mix and match. Let one unit do it all and not mix it up, and he thought the PA+ would do a better job. But maybe he was just trying to get rid of me. hmmm :?
But I have tried it in the pass and it didn't work well, The PA+ already had the tunings in it and then the Band Manager was adding it's tunings and I think it really got screwy. But I would really like to try to get this to work just to see the difference.
So If I use MB for the tunings what do I set the PA+ to?
This explains a lot, I saw this and had no idea why it was doing it. So I figured I was doing something wrong.
Guys this really is priceless and I hope your getting something from Harman for doing it. If not you should be.
Thanks
Rick
My son used to be house engineer on a system with those speakers they can sound ok... but your not going to do it without extensive knowledge... not better than JBL anyway..
I see by downloading the VRx into Hi Q net that there are 4 PEQ's on the mid... and the DRPA only has 2 available...so yes use the Xti amps
This isn't right... and the reason I say that is that ANY fullrange or sub will only have the wires hooked to the 1+ and 1- terminals...(in fullrange mode) so the cable you are running to the sub should be 1+ and 1- on both ends...
BTW there is a whole thread dedicated to these terms and acronyms in the FAQ's if you want to know what they stand for....
G
Ok, cool I'll use the XTi's, I'm assuming I keep the PA+ inline but I don't want to use the speaker tunings from the PA+ at all? Correct? How do I do this?
Thanks
Rick
You can then still use the Auto Eq and see if you can't get even better sound.. you can then try the -0- curve and the -C- curve and whatever... even do a room eq and see what happens...but always with one stack only and with the mic about 20-25 feet out on the floor aimed at the speakers mic on a towel..
Gadget
Thanks guys.
Rick
You know... you can set up 3 different full range passbands in stereo right?
Hi outs X2
mid outs X2
sub outs x2
The amps also have passthrough features... but they are mostly useful for Bridged operation...
Realize thought that with 2 single 18 subs you would be best to put them together and get 3db of free output AND smoother frequency response
G
No sorry's necessary, I own you and Dra a ton.
No not really, I wondered about it when I set up the HPF but wasn't going to push my luck. I ran the jumpers on the in's and out's on the amps. I guess all of the meters will work on the PA+ using this method.
With the HPF I'm using now I'm seeing some strange meter readings on the Band Manager. Mids and Sub meters look great, everything about even, (inputs and outputs on the meters) but the highs are near Clipping on the inputs and the meters show nothing on the outputs. Even tho the highs are still way to strong on most songs, I have the high amp turned down to 45% and the high crossover -5db. Maybe the 3 full range passbands will help that.
Its late now, but I'll try that tomorrow night after my wife and I teach dance lessons. We also teach along with DJ'ing, (as a hobby, not as a living) This way we get paid to dance and can hear the music we want to dance to. I had to turn a hobby in to an income.
Thanks again Gadget.
Rick
No Idea what your getting at here...
Consider this... the horns are generally in the 108-110 dB efficient.... Mids and woofers are generally in the 94-98 dB efficient... that's a 10-16dB difference ! AND the High content is FAR less dynamic...
Ya... its a vicious cycle...been there, done that, got the "T" shirt...
G
When I set this up I'm also going to do it in "setup mode" ?
Trying to find more info for setting the XTi's for crossovers and tunings isn't easier for me either, Were you guys born with this knowledge? :?:
Wife and I, setting up for New Years Eve dance. 2010 1st JBL system.
Thanks again.
Rick
You know, when setting up those things in the wizard, it doesn't change much of anything when you aren't doing bi-amping and tri-amping and the lot... the difference between selecting fullrange tops and custom tops doesn't amount to a hill of beans... maybe a different HPF...
You can prove this to yourself...
Set up a 2x2 and select your speakers...
Set up another with all custom settings....
Then look at the PEQ's... there will be none...
Look at the GEQ... nothing....
Look at the xover.... probably a different HPF maybe not
Look at the gain setting on the filter...might be different... but still no big deal...
So, whats different? nothing to worry about...
As for the other setup, select stereo and stereo in the wizard (unless you want to do the auto EQ separate on both sides... stereo = one pass for both, stereo/dual mono = separate passes for each side...)
Select bi-amp tops and stereo subs (2X6) (kind of a crappy way to do it in my opinion... but that's what they chose...) select what you have or all custom it really matters not...,
Select [xover] and in the upper right corner of the display, note that there is a HML that stands for High, mid , and low outputs... using the [xover] button press it till the H is highlighted...now you can use the <> and rotary encoder to lower the HPF on the high outputs...
Follow the same procedure with the M, and the L outputs.
The block diagram helped me out the most actually...then it was just sit and press buttons till it all made sense...
Cute couple..
TTFN
G
I finally got enough knowledge to get the XTi's to do all of the crossovers, speaker tunings, Out EQ's etc. That it fixed my run away highs to the point were doing the Auto EQ even sounds great. With some adjustments. I guess those missing PEQ's on the PA+ and the JBL VRX combination were causing the trouble.
One of the things that I found that help me the most yesterday was JBL's web site has speaker tuning tables for the XTi's and the PA+ that you can print out. I got those and started comparing them. See I really didn't know where to find the PEQ's on my XTi's. There's no mention of PEQ's on the XTi's. (I can hear you LOL) After comparing the sheet I figured out that the Out EQ on the XTi's is the PEQ's on the PA+. ( I just hadn't read that anywhere.) Plus you had already told me about the XTi's having Channel 1 for low's and Channel 2 for highs and that I would have to manually enter them so that one amp would be the same on both channels. But I couldn't do it manually because on the Out EQ's on the XTi there's no place to add Low Shelf settings. (that I could find) After some head banging on the keyboard, I thought "wonder if I could copy and paste Channel 1 to Channel 2? I bet its way harder than that" Nope it worked perfect. I read you could copy and paste one amp to another, just never thought about copy an EQ setting before. Once I had the tri amps set up for Highs, Mids and Low's I set the PA+ the way you said using a 2X6 with all band pass. Which I must add, was perfect instructions, Just the kind I needed.
My subject title is almost right on the money. The PA+ is almost overkill with the XTi's and Band Master. Except, now that I've got the highs under control I found that Auto EQ on the PA+ is working a lot better. I did all of the curves and found they all had advantages over having the EQ turned off on the PA+. So now I think its going to fun to see how well it does in other places.
You may already know this but my Band Master came with an offline version that I was able to set up my crossovers and EQ out's and then save the settings to a file. Here at work. I ended up not using them because I realized they were wrong. But it was a great learning tool, no amps required.
Interesting, if you only knew how many times I entered a value backwards you would think I'm blind. And yes ADD here also.
Nice bike also, ( cool )
I race MX from 1972 (at 12 years old) to 1982.
I'm on the Honda. (red bike)
Well I think this is it for me for now, I'm sure I'll have an issue later on to ask about.
I really can't thank you guys enough for all the information you've provided. I would have given up by now without your help. May have even taken my PA+ back to the store and got my money back. (That's so Harman can see the value you guys provide.)
Thanks Gadget and Dra.
Rick
DRA