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x-over amp speaker connection question
Jwros
Posts: 12
I am in the process of purchasing sound equipment for my church. I am looking at buying a Mackie 1604, DBX 223XS xover, Crown XTi6k (2), and some entry level yamaha's, dual subs (CW218) @ 1200 program and dual 15s (C215V) @ 1000w program.
-or-
Buy the 1604, dbx 223xs, xti 2k (2), an xti4k and some entry level Peavey's, dual 15s (PV215), PV118 subs, and PV12m.
Both scenarios will fit my budget.
Here's my concern: In either set up, when I connect from my x-over ( 3 way mono), and from ONE AMP I will connect to one channel for my highs and the other channel for my mids, and go out stereo to my subs from a different amp; but when connecting to my speakers from the amp, I am assuming I will daisy chain the highs speakers and only connect the amp to just one of them, and do the same for my mids. Right?
-or-
Buy the 1604, dbx 223xs, xti 2k (2), an xti4k and some entry level Peavey's, dual 15s (PV215), PV118 subs, and PV12m.
Both scenarios will fit my budget.
Here's my concern: In either set up, when I connect from my x-over ( 3 way mono), and from ONE AMP I will connect to one channel for my highs and the other channel for my mids, and go out stereo to my subs from a different amp; but when connecting to my speakers from the amp, I am assuming I will daisy chain the highs speakers and only connect the amp to just one of them, and do the same for my mids. Right?
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Why not use the x-overs in the amps and save the money from the 223xs? Might even be able to upgrade your speakers.
DRA
Once I mentioned that I was getting subs, I was advised to get x-overs. I was informed that dual subs and dual 15s will give me more flexibility, and power. I considered the tops, but had the majority of sound guys tell me that for a moderate size outside concert this set up of speakers would work better.
Purpose of equipment: Moderate concerts and rally's; stage size 8 x 20; from 100 to 300 people; musicians miked (keys, bass, drums, sometimes brass) solists, praise team singers of up to 8; music style Gospel, and Bluegrass Gospel
Not sure what you mean and how that applies to the need for an external x-over.
DRA
I thought it was obious, when I stated "considered"; the tops were no longer in my plans. But I'm not sure what more information you need to help me out.
So I'll state again...
I getting subs to supply bass for moderate size concerts and rally's. I was informed to get x-overs since I was getting subs, this is the first reason I wanted x-overs. I never used x-overs. I want the soloists and praise team to have presence when the band plays, and not be drowned out. I also wanted to split the three signals lows, mids, and higs so the amps weren't working too hard for the subs, this is another reason I'm interested in the x-over. Could I use tops? Yes. I'm budgeted for them, as well as speakers for mids and lows. My concern is regarding connections after the x-over to the amp then speakers.
By tops I mean whatever full range speaker you have (or are going to have). Typically these will have a horn for highs and a single 12", 2) 12", a 15", or 2) 15" speakers for Lows. When you add subs, the 12" or 15" effectively become Mids.
You said that you are getting 2 XTI amps (of some kind). They have DSP onboard and have x-overs, PEQ, limiters etc.. With the 2 amps (4 channels) you can either... let me stop there and get your reply.
DRA
Ok Got it! But Dra I follow you! I'm just doing a horrible way of communicating it to you.
But in a connection config. with a mixer, to an GEQ, to a 223XS, (and here's the fuzzy area) connecting to Crown Xti6k amp to the dual 15's; it is here that I will connect my highs from let's say (I run highs from x-over to here) ch.1 then connect that to the highs on the duals, then connect (I run mids from x-over to here)ch.2 from the same amp then connect this to the same speaker but AS mids. Right?
Then I run (from the lows from the x-over)to a different amp in stereo to my subs. Right?
As for the Crowns, I know off hand they have limiters, but I need to look at the specs for other features.
The 223Xl is NOT something you want OR need if you have the XTi amps... The XTi amps have ALL the processing you need... One of the driveracks would be in order if you don't have amps for processing.
NONE of those speakers is bi-ampable...and even if they were there is no tunings for them and that would be way over your head to tune and set up...
Further, those speakers listed are very poor selections and will most likely be able to do small inside work for up to 100-200 people, not outdoors for up to 300..
What IS your budget?
Gadget
My budget is about $3000.
DRA
As I stated here, I'm in the planning stage right now. Before I buy, I wanted some advise.
What I want to do is make a purchase that will supply what's needed for an outside youth rally and moderate size concert. I wanted subs to provide some punch for the kick and bass. That's why I was asking the question about the 223XS crossovers. But if I don't need the 223XS crossovers I won't buy the 223XS crossovers.
DRA
Dude, let's focus on the the issue with the subs. This post started because I wanted to purchase subs, and I was told that I needed an external x-over.
Once again, I stated the speakers I am budgeted for: Yamaha's C series or Peavey PV series.
Do you need to know everything that I'm purchasing to answer this question?
Dennis
I also answered it long ago. Sorry that you thought your question was ignored. Didn't mean to upset you. I (we) were simply trying to understand what you had to help you hook up your system correctly.
DRA
Fellas I get it. The 223 is NOT needed. I understand that the XTi amps and others like them, are really great amps and they have a lot of processing already built in them.
Now for a budget of about $3000, I can remove the idea of buying x-overs. What I'm hearing from all of you guys, is the same thing. So I see you all understand the benefits of the XTi's. I get this. I do.
What I was waiting to find out from Gadget, after he asked about my budget, was which speakers did he recommend. I just got hung up on using x-overs (now I want to know when would you even need to use a 223).
Dra I see what you were asking, of my $3000, how much will be left after buying mics, sankes, etc.
Mics and mic stands, etc. I already have. That's why I was only focusing on a mixer and speakers, my $3000 is for them.
You all know the style of music, and the type of venue, and size of crowd. What I want to produce is a punch for the kick and bass, I want the audience to feel it.
You want a specific question answered that we have ALL universally tried to get more information on, so that you don't make a $3000 mistake you have to live with...
You were sold a bill of goods (information) and you don't know why they wanted you to have a crossover, and we tell you it's not necessary...(with the amp you have mentioned if the amp does not have the processing internally you WILL want a crossover ... but an analog one? NOT a good choice in today's market!
Your responses have been vague and you don't seem to have ANY experience with this... we have multiple DECADES of just this kind of experience and have helped THOUSANDS of people all over the world get exceptional sound with minimal outlay of money....
You might have missed the READ ME FIRST BEFORE POSTING section and FAQ's that specifically set down the rules we expect followed if you want our help...
1. ALL the information about what you have for equipment, and what your trying to do... including
a. Venue size
b. System purpose
c. budget
There is lots more to this, but suffice it to say between us we have set up thousands of system ourselves, and helped umteen thousand others, but we NEED information, AND we ask that you follow the recommendations, and provide the information requested if your going to get the benefits of our advice.. or your just wasting your time and ours...
While this IS the dbx (all products) forum... that is not what we started out doing, this was the DRIVERACK forum, and that is specifically what we specialize in, BUT we have enough collective knowledge to field just about any question you can come up with in system setup and tuning for optimum performance and sonic clarity...
Your talking about buying crappy DJ equipment I wouldn't even recommend and amps that clearly are light years ahead of the rest of the stuff your talking about? This is simply going to put you in an untenable situation.. and we are trying to avoid this...
Dra is trying to find out if you have $3000 for speakers and amps, or, if your going to have $3000 for everything necessary to pull off this miracle...because if $3000 is all you have for EVERYTHING... you can count on spending about than 1/2 your budget on ONE AMP! where is the money for mics, cables, monitors and monitor amps... console, outboard gear like efx and speaker cables... you clearly don't seem to realize just how much this stuff costs...
I think... you would be better off looking at something used, maybe a whole system...where you can get better quality for less money... then at least you won't be polishing a turd!
Please don't get defensive, were only trying to help, and it isn't going to be in the form of a yes or no answer...
Gadget
Forum moderator...
I mention my venue, purpose, and budget several times. I stated the $3000 was for the mixer and the speakers. The rest of equipment I've already have. As for the "crappy" dj equipment, I don't make the product, and I have not made a purchase.
I also stated I never use x-overs; if I had any experience with them I wouldn't be in this post asking questions about them.
My question to you (as stated in my post) was which speakers did you recommend?
Gadget, I thank you and Dra for your help.
As for as how much things cost, I buy directly from the manufactures and distributors. I just opened up a store front, here in Los Angeles back in November when I got my seller's license (things are slow). I just started to sell pro audio equipment. The store front is owned by my uncle, but he's happy with the rent. My budgeted of $3000 based on wholesale and distributor prices. This is why I'm not too concern with cost, like you guys. I see dealer cost thru my online accounts from distributors and manufactures.
No joke.
My budget for $3000, was all I really could spare right now. In a month or two, I might be able to increase the budget to $4000 or $5000,(my day job is teaching for Los Angeles Unifed, on spring break this week; and a Youth Pastor) but there are a lot of rally's and concerts coming up at my church. And I wanted to make a purchase within the next two weeks.
I work with many sound engineers, who also have years of experience. But I am just starting out. Now I can ask them the same questions I tried to ask you. But I know learning about crossovers or bi-amplification is a class away, or a phone call away, or a textbook away. I major in braodcasting, then received my credentials, and now attend seminary; but I got just a little audio training in college. So I am not an expert in audio, and it doesn't bother me. I don't look to the forums to supply as much help and information as a personal contact, or working for free on one of my buddy's gig, but sometimes I am surprised, this time I was not.
The advice you provided will be placed in a chest of knowledge, I believe you have help out countless of people, and will continue to do so. But I know there's not a person out there that knows everything, that's why I read books, talk in forums, take a course, attend seminars etc; because I just started out and I'm trying to get all the information as fast as I can. I asked this same quesion in other forums, and got more of a straightforward answer.
Now my buddy who informed me that I needed a crossover is out of town, and he and I did not sit down and discuss crossovers, I was hoping I would get an answer about these crossovers in a forum. It did not go too well in this dbx forum.
You answer one of my questions, and I will now simply leave it at that. Thank you job well done.
God Bless and Take Care!
PM sent.
DRA
We have provided a "Getting started" thread that takes you through an imaginary setup with the driverack, a digital loudspeaker processor. Unlike imprecise and limited analog crossovers... the driverack provides a tool set that greatly helps with all the things you said you wanted...that thread is Here, in the READ ME BEFORE POSTING section:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959
However I also included a setup for a 2 way (stereo tops and mono subs) using a 223Xl crossover in the FAQ section
viewforum.php?f=60
The FAQ section breaks down many of the elements of production, and examines how they work. There is a thread on audio terms, and links to enough reading material to keep you busy for YEARS...
I'm not sure that there is actually an explanation of what a crossover is, but a simple google search using the syntax "What is a crossover" elicited 32 million 100 thousand answers....
Here we focus on how to implement crossovers and the tools modern tools of audio reproduction and enforcement.
To Directly answer your questions
Peavey DOES make a better product in the budget line, and that is the SP2, and SP118/ SP218. The SP2 is set up for bi-amping, the others you are talking about are not....
The next step up is a speaker with a better HF driver...the LEAST expensive of these is the DAS RF 1264 (it's not set up for bi-amping thought), and has 2" exit horns and a very warm, round sounding 12" woofer. (the SP2's have a 1 " exit horn and a 15" woofer.
15" woofers do NOT make a very good midrange driver (not very "musical" if you will) however, there is a tradeoff...the 12" or smaller can't go as low as the 15", but is not a problem if you are using subs.
The RF 1264's and SP218 subs would make a VERY GOOD system for what your doing, but I don't think your probably a dealer for DAS audio?...
Perhaps as a dealer, you can get a demo of the equipment you are looking to purchase, that way you can be sure it will do what you need it to do.
Now, you mentioned a bi-amp top... that requires you to set up an active crossover, and skills that are not necessarily intuitive, but again we have provided, in the FAQ section, a setup for SP2 biamp tops and subs:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1081
Now, the amps you specify have built in crossovers, High pass filters parametric Equalizers and limiters for protection, all FAR superior to ANY analog crossover. BUT they require you to set up those devices, OR use speakers that are already loaded into the amp... those would be other Harmon products ...JBL, but in the bang for the buck category, you get a LOT more for less money with other products.
Now, if you have more questions were always here...
Gadget
Great stuff!
After I'm done reading (and it will take some time) maybe I might bug you again with questions.
I take it all back, dbx has one heckof a forum.
Take Care!!